Am I a troublemaker? I may fit your criteria:

I don’t think NATO should support Ukraine.

I’ll bite. Why not?

what does Ukraine bring to NATO except liability.

NATO is a defensive pact to protect nations from russian aggression, or other states also of course. Ukraine was invaded by Russia. Plenty of geopolitical experts have discussed how financial support of Ukraine is the best investment when it comes to weakening the Russian military. Which makes them less of a threat to NATO

They were very defensive in Libya and Yugoslavia

Nice argument, however the population supported it:

According to a Gallup poll conducted in March and April 2012, a survey involving 1,000 Libyans showed 75% of Libyans were in favor of the NATO intervention, compared to 22% who were opposed.[1] A post-war Orb International poll involving 1,249 Libyans found broad support for the intervention, with 85% of Libyans saying that they strongly supported the action taken to remove the Ghadafi regime.[2]

[1] http://news.gallup.com/poll/156539/opinion-briefing-libyans-eye-new-relations-west.aspx [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20170608060559/https://www.orb-international.com/article.php?s=4-in-5-libyans-agree-country-heading-in-right-direction-according-to-post-revolution-citizen-poll

So it sounds more like you are just anti-NATO from an ideological perspective

Libya ended in open air slave markets lmao, and you’re citing western sources saying "well they aaked for it

yeah and if you believe that I’ve got a bridge to sell you

NATO is a defensive pact to protect nations from russian aggression

NATO is a legacy of the Cold War that was aimless until the Russian invasion lol. The Soviet Union even tried to join NATO when it was first talked about and was rebuffed (and you can’t say it’s because “muh democracy,” as Greece, Turkey, and Portugal - a literal fascist state until 1974 - have all been or are authoritarian states at various points in their NATO memberships).

Plenty of geopolitical experts have discussed how financial support of Ukraine is the best investment when it comes to weakening the Russian military.

Plenty also argued from the collapse of the Soviet Union that NATO expansion into eastern Europe would antagonize Russia.

Yeah it’s pretty clear you’re not trying to have a reasonable discussion when you mention that the USSR wanted to join NATO. That was an attempt to undermine the defensive pact by using it’s own rules about inter-member conflicts against it.

One of the core strengths of NATO is that if a country is invaded then the other countries can’t just vote to kick that state out. There is no mechanism to remove another country from the group, by design. So you are either uninformed or deliberately misrepresenting it when you discuss issues with certain members during their membership

It is not an alliance against the Russian federation. It was an alliance against the ussr. After that it became a rogue army for enforcing us hegemony. Every time it has been used it was to make the world worse. This mercenary core was originally made of nazi generals with nazi soldiers as well. So it really boggles the mind that anyone thinks they could be good for the world.

Complete nothingburger. What military capability do the Baltic states bring? Isolated geographical position, small countries with small armies and small economies.

So it’s not a factor in the first place. But even if it was, Ukraine handily outranks Poland when it comes to providing capability. They have an extensive (largely state-owned btw) arms industry, very capable engineers, and, in case you haven’t noticed, fighting spirit.

Last but not least they’re punching above their weight in Eurovision. Oh wait that was EU accession, not NATO.

Isolated geographical position, small countries with small armies and small economies.

worse than that what they bring to an alliance is pretty much no extra money or anything else but also a significantly higher chance of getting into a war

frankly I’m of the opinions that everything east of Germany is a pretty cheeky imposition on Russias traditional standing in Europe. You can’t just break all the old rules for operating in Europe and not expect consequences

Traditional standing, yes, as colonial empire. It may be cheeky but why would it be bad standing up against that?

You know what Russia could have done to prevent NATO expansion? Not invade Moldova, not invade Georgia, and deal with Chechnya in a manner that doesn’t smell of genocide. Make sure that Eastern Europe doesn’t feel threatened so that they don’t feel the need to join NATO. Of course the Baltics, Poland, etc, joined, they don’t want to repeat the experience of being a Russian colony.

And just for the record no I’m not actually a fan of NATO, or better put the US being part of the whole shebang. Only positive thing about that is that without Europe in the mix the yanks would likely be even worse.

they have that standing because they have the guns. They still have the guns so they still have the standing

those rules don’t just exist for no reason they are to prevent war between the powers in Europe break those rules and you risk war. It doesn’t matter what the Balkans and Poland think they don’t have nuclear weapons

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