The western values Ukraine is defending are becoming more apparent by the day.
Alright, let’s roll with that logic: A sovereign government that violates the sovereignty of it’s citizens is illegitimate. Since Ukraine is now violating the sovereignty of it’s citizens for wartime mobilization, it is an illegitimate government. That’s a sound premise, actually. In a vacuum this would be true.
However, that completely loses the nuance that Ukraine is not the aggressor in this “senseless war”. Ukraine did not violate it’s citizen’s sovereignty, RUSSIA DID by initiating the war of annexation against the sovereign government of Ukraine. By violating the sovereignty of the government, Russia thus violated the sovereignty of every citizen under that government. None of this would have been necessary had the initial aggression not been committed.
So, now extend your argument: Let’s go ahead and accuse Ukraine of violating human rights with this expansion of power. You must also do so for Russia, who backed Ukraine into this corner in the first place, and who is also committing infinitely worse violations against the civilian territory they have thus far annexed. Are you willing to do that? Because so far, you haven’t.
You seem to be echoing a large number of Russian propaganda points trying to paint Ukraine as some fascist shithole, and not the independent nation being overrun by a expansionist dictatorship that it is. This argument is not in good faith.
However, that completely loses the nuance that Ukraine is not the aggressor in this “senseless war”.
Weird, last I checked Ukraine was involved in a war against Donbas since 2014 as even western media reported at the time.
Ukraine did not violate it’s citizen’s sovereignty, RUSSIA DID by initiating the war of annexation against the sovereign government of Ukraine.
And if people of Ukraine wanted to defend the state then they would be voluntarily fighting to do so.
By violating the sovereignty of the government, Russia thus violated the sovereignty of every citizen under that government. None of this would have been necessary had the initial aggression not been committed.
None of that has anything to do with the western sponsored regime in Ukraine forcing people to fight Russia for western interests.
So, now extend your argument: Let’s go ahead and accuse Ukraine of violating human rights with this expansion of power. You must also do so for Russia, who backed Ukraine into this corner in the first place, and who is also committing infinitely worse violations against the civilian territory they have thus far annexed. Are you willing to do that? Because so far, you haven’t.
The premise the west peddles is that Ukraine is defending western values against Russia which is already presumed to be bad. However, if it turns out that Ukraine is doing the same things you claim are bad when Russia is doing, then what values is Ukraine defending exactly?
Turns out this conflict isn’t about values it all, it’s about whose sphere of influence Ukraine is going to be under.
You seem to be echoing a large number of Russian propaganda points trying to paint Ukraine as some fascist shithole, and not the independent nation being overrun by a expansionist dictatorship that it is. This argument is not in good faith.
Meanwhile, you’re making an incoherent argument that doesn’t make a lick of sense trying to defend literal fascism in Ukraine.
LOL. What a ridiculous take. “Alliances”. You don’t have national alliances, neither do any of us, because we’re people. We have opinions. And the opinions of most of the left globally is that the USA is the greatest scourge of humanity and Russia is in a fight for its existence against an American proxy in the form of Ukraine.
It’s also such a thought terminator when you libs assume the only way people could arrive at this opinion is if you’re paid to do it, as opposed to libs who clearly are free thinkers and don’t get paid for their ideas they just arrive at them fully independently even though it completely aligns with US propaganda efforts, official State Dept narratives, and the clear oligarch-run news media consensus. You could never be paid to have your ideas, but your opponents? Of course they have nothing worthy of arguing because they are paid shills regurgitating from a script.
Weird, last I checked Ukraine was involved in a war against Donbas since 2014 as even western media reported at the time.
It’s almost like Russia has expressed its desire to annex Ukraine for over a decade now and has been sending disguised military units to create a “resistance” to fabricate a justification for “liberating” parts of Ukraine into Russian territory. Weird… It’s not like they explicitly gave that as one of the 20 conflicting reasons for this invasion or anything
It literally is a fascist shithole. It’s littered with monuments to Nazis and Nazi collaborators, it’s armed forces are filled with Nazis, its leadership pays homage to Nazi collaborators, and the entire reason we’re in this situation is the US-backed coup in 2014 of which Nazis were the prime domestic force, and which led to the proliferation of Nazi gangs. Ukraine is not an independent nation.
You talk about Russia violating sovereignty, what about the Ukrainian bombing of the Donbas (illegal cluster munitions used) and repeated violations of ceasefires? Russia didn’t invade Ukraine out of the blue, they had specific demands for the end of far-right nationalism, repression of Russian speakers, and NATO expansion (NATO itself being a Nazi collaborationist institution).
It’s hilarious that you people think the mods of a random instance are a front for the Hexbear NKVD or something, as opposed to the simple explanation that what you call “Russian propaganda” is what we call “things the west will admit six month later.”
Six months from now you’ll be pretending you always knew Ukraine was a fascist shithole as you argue for the emergency conscription of Volksturm units to stop the Russian horde.
Are you saying that Ukraine does not celebrate Bandera as a national hero or that Bandera was not a Nazi? Are you saying that Ukraine did not knowingly integrate explicitly neo-Nazi militias who recruited on the basis of their neo-Nazi ideology or that that those battalions are not neo-Nazis? Are you saying that the USA doesn’t vote against the resolution to condemn celebration of Nazis every single time it comes to vote or that the resolution isn’t actually about condemning the celebration of Nazis?
Just trying to figure out which “facts” you’re working with here.
I don’t care if my comment is “normal,” but it is “rational and source-supported.” You’re not “calling out hexbear users,” you’re flaunting your ignorance. Points sourced one by one:
It’s littered with monuments to Nazis and Nazi collaborators [*] [*]
Tweet by the National Guard of Ukraine:
its leadership pays homage to Nazi collaborators [*] [*] [*]
and the entire reason we’re in this situation is the US-backed coup in 2014 of which Nazis were the prime domestic force [*] [*]
(illegal cluster munitions used) and repeated violations of ceasefires [*] [*]
they had specific demands for the end of far-right nationalism, repression of Russian speakers, and NATO expansion [*] [*]
NATO itself being a Nazi collaborationist institution [*] [*]
@empireOfLove2@lemmy.dbzer0.com Your comment has been up for over four hours, so 0 for 1 on predictions. I gave you citations for what I said in my comment, things you would have known if you would’ve looked into the conflict at all. You were so concerned with “discourse based in logic” and “source-supported comments,” so what happened?
It’s extremely scummy to imply I’m a liar or making stuff up, then when I go and prove what I’ve said, you can’t even respond to apologize. If your comment was just a dishonest method of wasting my time, then you should be banned and have your comment removed.
You seem to be echoing a large number of Russian propaganda points trying to paint Ukraine as some fascist shithole
- History of Fascism in Ukraine Part I: The Origins of the OUN 1917-1941
- History of Fascism in Ukraine Part II: The OUN during World War 2, 1941-1945
- History of Fascism in Ukraine Part III: 1944-1963 UPA War, Ratlines, and the Assassination of Stepan Bandera
- History of Fascism in Ukraine Part IV: The Global OUN Network in Exile, 1962-1992
- The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It
- BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
- Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
- Reuters, 2014: Leaked audio reveals embarrassing U.S. exchange on Ukraine, EU
- Truthout, 2015: The Ukraine Mess That Nuland Made
- The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
- The Guardian, 2017: ‘I want to bring up a warrior’: Ukraine’s far-right children’s camp – video
- WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
- Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
- The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
- Jacobin, 2022: A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War
- Consortium News, 2022: Evidence of US-Backed Coup in Kiev
Edit to add: Usually someone responds with, yeah well Russia has fascists, too, to which I usually respond:
There are Russian fascists. Take Navalny, for example, who the US tried to use in its regime change efforts so that it could resume its neoliberal shock therapy plundering that started under Yeltsin and ended under Putin.
Quoting Internationalist 360° as a reliable source isn’t going to win anyone over. And the ‘The Hill’ article you listed concludes something that is the opposite of what you are claiming:
The odious Russian media tried to paint Ukraine as a land of Nazis, though that is patently wrong. Ukraine has a thriving Jewish community, and its far-right is still on the fringe.
We all understand your point of view, everyone’s a Nazi if they are against Russian/Chinese imperialism.
We all understand your point of view, everyone’s a Nazi if they are against Russian/Chinese imperialism.
I don’t think that at all. Being “against” Russia or China doesn’t per-se make someone a fascist. I’m not confused about what fascism is, and I don’t use it as a floating signifier for stuff I don’t like.
But neither Russia nor China is imperialist. The imperial core is imperialist, otherwise known as the Global North.
.
Over 20 years go Russia—at the time lead by Putin—wanted to join the imperialism club, but the US rejected them: Ex-Nato head says Putin wanted to join alliance early on in his rule. Now Russia, rejected by the Global North, has no choice but to join with the Global South as allies instead. This shift in allegiances has been massively accelerated by the sanctions of this war.
Ukraine has a thriving Jewish community
So fascism means hating Jews? What about the fascists genociding Palestinians in Israel as we speak?
Notice that point from “The Hill” has no examples or evidence. It’s not relevant; they were citing the examples given not the author’s out-of-the-blue conclusion (which can be chalked up to the counter-bias that was the reason it was cited). I have another comment on this post proving that the far-right is not “still on the fringe.”
Quoting Internationalist 360° as a reliable source isn’t going to win anyone over.
Oh, I see the issue: you don’t understand how sources work. They’re not citing Internationalist 360° as a reliable source by itself—if you would’ve read until the end of the article you would’ve seen that the author provided a list of sources used. The article is simply a summary of the history using those sources.
Please tell me about “Chinese imperialism.” I’d love to hear about how Chinese investment in Africa, the only FDI with a positive impact on development, is “imperialism.” I’d love to hear how the PRC’s claim to Taiwan, despite being accepted by nearly every country on earth and recognized by the UN (and favored upon by the majority of Taiwanese despite no clear support for total reunification, hence its not happening yet when China could conceivably force it upon the population), the US admitting that their cynical support for separatism is only to keep the PRC down, is “imperialism,” and in fact Taiwan is an independent state with no relation to China (despite its constitution being the Constitution of the Republic of China, and its president the president of the Republic of China, with the so-called ROC claiming sovereignty over all of the mainland of China, Outer Mongolia, and Russia—see the emblem of the ROC Marine Corps).
