The western values Ukraine is defending are becoming more apparent by the day.
What do you mean by “western values Ukraine is defending”? This change doesnt really have anything to do with values, they’re running out of resources. And if you think Russia gives the tiniest shit about human and property rights… lol
Oh this must be that whataboutism we keep hearing about. Meanwhile, I love how running out of resources means it’s ok to abandon all your values in the minds of liberals. Mask sure falls off pretty fast.
So explain, then, what point you’re making and what your alternative is? Your initial statement is intentionally vague and seems to have a very direct agenda to make Ukraine look bad by posting this article. And I didn’t claim Ukraine expanding its martial law powers was “right”, because its not, but it is at least understandable considering how their entire country is teetering on the edge of complete civil collapse (and such restrictions are with precedent, most nations do during wars and even America did restrict a lot of liberties during WWII/vietnam/etc). Sticking to your morals is valiant but pointless if it means you get overrun by those without morals.
But your vague statement seem to think this change makes them worse than Russia.
The point I’m making is very simple and should be obvious. When the regime has to grab people off the street and force them to fight, then it has no legitimacy. This isn’t a case of people willingly defending their country, it’s fascist regime backed by the west that’s forcing people to die in a senseless war. If you can’t understand such basic things then what else is there to say to you.
I think one thing that’s getting lost in the discussion here is you keep talking about governments as if they are people. Ostensibly liberal states exist to protect human beings and their rights. At the point where “you” have to let “your” values slide in order to deal with “your” existential crisis we are talking about the governent as if it has feelings and its own aspirations that deserve to be treated with the same seriousness we theoretically want to apply to human welfare.
I feel very bad for Ukrainians, to be clear, I think they’ve been mistreated by the US who used them to try and get one over on an adversary in the knowledge that other people will be the ones dying if it goes poorly. That’s certainly very bad.
However you feel about the justice of the invasion, though, we’ve reached the point where even people who support the war and want Ukraine to win are defining winning as a negotiated settlement where they give up territory. If NATO is not willing to fight Russia directly (clearly they aren’t) and continuing the aid to the conflict is not even providing a reasonable way for Ukraine to retain its territory and even cheerleaders who are on the side of Ukraine’s government believe they will have to negotiate a settlement then WHY ARE WE NOT PUSHING THAT? More Ukrainians are being expected to die, against their will as you freely acknowledge, for no long term strategic purpose.
The death and destruction from this war is a human tragedy. It will be more tragic if it is prolonged for years only to end in the same way it could have within months.
Worse, it’s sometimes tankies, which means ditching it outright doesn’t feel justified enough
I saw a person lower in the thread talking about Stalin’s USSR being a democracy, while another said that Russia and China can’t be imperialist. Doesn’t seem like a case of overuse to me.
Do you think the representational democracy throughout the west is real democracy or just a case of “vote for us every 4 years you pleb then STFU while we collect this lovely lobbyist money, filling our pockets and fail to deliver any campaign promises we ran on”
And you think tankies are fucking idiots?!
Fascist government does more fascist shit. More at 11
What is this liberal handwringing? The justness of of fighting off an imperialist invasion doesn’t come from adhering to some vague notions of “western values”, but from not wanting to be subjected to that violence.
If you truly believe what you insinuate, your support for Palestine is conditional at best, irrational or deceitful at worst. If you don’t believe that - then stop being an agitator.
Defending yourself against an aggressor should only ever be focussed against the agressor, not against civillians not taking part in the war and no person ever should be forced to fight in any war.
I agree. Ukraine shouldn’t do this.
The OP’s insinuation, however was not :
Ukraine is doing bad, it should do good
But:
Ukraine is doing bad, it doesn’t deserve support
When you go this route, you side with the oppressor.
Equating the people of Ukraine with the western backed regime is the height of idiocy.
Didn’t Ukraine also ban the opposition party, jail opposition politicians and cancel elections?
