Australia’s Mona asked a court to reverse its ruling that allowed men inside a women’s only space.
Archived version: https://archive.ph/oHT6U
Well isn’t that about some hypocritical shit?!
From the article…
“The lounge, which contains some of the museum’s most-acclaimed works - from Picasso to Sidney Nolan - has been closed to the public since the court’s order.”
Both Pablo Picasso and Sidney Nolan were both men!
If they’re gonna play that ‘women only’ card, then they should remove all works created by men and move them to a proper open museum.
The amount of people/men who don’t get it is astonishing. Art isn’t just something you can put on a wall. This entire thing with excluding men is an art installation, supposed to generate emotions and a discussion about exclusion and gender disparity. And seeing how many men around the world are frothing at the mouth over an installation at a small museum at the end of the world it is an extremely powerful piece of art. I applaud the museum for this.
Intent matters. If all you just want is to piss off people, that’s trolling. I don’t see this being the point here.
There are still places that are men only. Women can’t join the freemasons for example, but you don’t see this sort of extremely angry reaction to that.
And I agree, this art piece is doing exactly what it was supposed to.
Do you have any more examples other than the freemasons? I had assumed we were done with needless segregation (excluding bathrooms and such).
The only thing that makes sense in my mind is that male dominated spaces have non-explicit social barriers in place that are being approximated by the explicit barrier the museum has set up.
In the UK there’s golf clubs that have pretty toxic atmospheres and dress codes but aren’t legally allowed to bar women.
Sorry if this is super ignorant, I’m acknowledging the problem I just want to understand it better
You’re right, but to play devil’s advocate; that’s extremely unintuitive and took me to my 20s to figure out
Well, the mean age here seems to be over 30, so I’d expect a tad more maturity.
Point is, art is art, and a museum is a museum. Anyone mature enough should be allowed to enter any museum they want and view whatever exhibits they want.
That gender specific crap can and does end up going both ways. And it shouldn’t be that way, anywhere.
In a world where there are millions of men who actually believe women are advantaged over men in today’s society, it’s interesting to see the international uproar occurring over this single exhibit that made that belief actually true. A single exhibit at a sex museum in Tasmania that’s literally about gender discrimination.
If they’re gonna play that ‘women only’ card, then they should remove all works created by men and move them to a proper open museum.
Why?
There shouldn’t be such thing as gender x only spaces. Or race, or sexuality. The women aren’t wrong about their points, but that doesn’t make it an acceptable or thankfully, legal thing to do. I’m sure the guy who sued them did it for all the wrong reasons though. Both sides seem a bit slimy.
You know who actually want women-only spaces?
Women.
Please share your mental gymnastics for how a rape survivor is supposed to feel safe in your space.
Sincerely, a rape survivor
Man I hate to say it but cutting off 50% of the population due to trauma is a tauma response and solely that.
Its horrible you ever had to go through that and not even knowing you personally if I had a time machine to help I would; but that was one bad person, not a bad populace.
On the other side of that, you can’t force something just because you’ve identified it as a trauma response. Deciding that women shouldn’t feel threatened by men (or the other way around) for them and taking away spaces they feel safe isn’t constructive, it’s cruel.
What about a space for rape victims, male or female? Spaces for survivors of things, people dealing with things, etc. are fine, and if those things only touch women, it’ll naturally only be women, or men who are (let’s argue good faith, here) trying to support someone else. Rape isn’t a female only problem, and so segregating it artificially may feel like a good idea at first glance, but creates other issues.
What about a space for black cop abuse survivors? I’d think that’s pretty inappropriate. It’ll already be mostly black, for sure, and a lot of that perspective will come through, but it’s not a black only issue.
I think the intent behind a safe space is that it is separated from potential triggers. So people who were abused by a man may wish to be in a space with no men, since the sight of men might bring up past trauma. Same for people abused by women. Putting men and women together, even though they have all experienced abuse, may still be exposing them all to the same triggers they want to avoid.
Of course all these people have the same right to having safe spaces, but those spaces don’t have to be in the same place.
Men and women are not the same. Rape is experienced differently for men and women. I’m not saying it’s worse for one than the other, but it literally involves that person’s genitals and is an intensely personal and gender specific thing.
The fact that you would lump male and female rape survivors together says a lot about how little experience you actually have with the subject.
There’s nothing wrong with having male-only rape survivor groups, especially if someone going through that trauma feels threatened by the other gender.
I’m all for segregation spaces as long as essential spaces are open to all such as hospitals, parks etc. There are women only gyms where I am and I used to go to them because I felt safer and more comfortable.
From now on, men have decided to declare every build and every bridge, build by men, to be men only. Build your own stuff please. /s
Next we can half separate but equal water fountains for coloreds and whites.
I would consider water fountains to be part of public infrastructure and essential, and therefore doesn’t fit into the model that I’m putting forward.
I’m not proposing that essential things like roads, water etc. are segregated but, rather, private businesses can choose how they operate. The risk is public backlash and hurting the bottom line and other businesses can choose to be open and accepting.
For example, queer bars vs het bars. It’s not segregated per se, but a business can choose how they want to operate to draw in the customers they want.
This is a slippery slope to things you wouldn’t want to be excluded from, if this appeal wins and creates precident to make much worse places. Thinking this is a feminist battle is narrow minded, selfish, and will absolutely backfire.
But the idea is that everyone can open their own and run it by the rules they want. If you or a group don’t like how one thing is run, there is freedom to open up the same thing but make it open for all. This museum is a private one, rather than run by the government, and therefore they can do what they like. The government ones should be open to all because they are elected by the public.
I’m not at all in favour of forcing everyone to comply to uniformity for the sake of inclusivity but I’m all for ensuring that there are spaces available that are inclusive and that there’s freedom to operate how you like, provided that it doesn’t hurt anyone.
Why do we need girls locker rooms when we’ve had the technology for mixed gender locker rooms for generations? We call them doors and use them even in single gender bathrooms.
Certainly it’s inappropriate for sexual predators to be able to leer at girls or women, but there I also no need to have a lack of privacy from those of the same gender, if that’s what people wish.
I mean, I can see where you’re coming from but locker rooms are a significant part of sport.
Comradery is built in locker rooms and they are where young athletes spend a large portion of their sporting time. This is especially true for certain sports needing significant prep time like (ice) hockey.
With young people already facing a loneliness crisis, we don’t need to be isolating them further to solve a non-problem.
Got this one from tumblr but its something along the lines of we go to the bathroom to shit, not have some special women fun time in there.
If there was a way to have my own room entirely without anyone else that’d be 100% preferred, but gender is the last thing im thinking about when someone’s peeking down the cracks of my stall
Idk, everytime I go partying with friends it definitely seems like womens bathrooms are a communal activity.
I didn’t read into this particular issue, but I know the museum in question, have been there a couple times, so some context:
- it was founded by some eccentric multi millionaire, who basically just does whatever he wants. The museum was originally free for everyone, until eventually he realised he was draining money really fast, so now it’s only free for locals.
- the museum changes it’s “theme” somewhat frequently. One time I was there the whole place looked like a grocery store, and the stairs to the actual museum was like hidden away in part of the store.
- the museum seems to thrive on getting strong reactions from people. Much of the art inside is quite shocking or provocative. They have an app where you can rate how much you like each artwork, and apparently they actively remove artworks which are too universally liked.
So it doesn’t surprise me at all that the museum is trying to be women only, but I really doubt it will be permanent, and I suspect that the strong public reactions is exactly the point.
Was just saying how I wish there were women only gyms because I don’t feel comfortable in coed gyms. Men are fucking creeps and do not respect personal space in my gym going experience. The reason there are no women only gyms in California is because men’s rights groups sued them for discrimination. So basically there aren’t any safe places to go to the gym for people like me.
edit: good to see the lack of reciprocity or willingness to look at this issue for what it actually is from certain instances.
Your comfort isn’t protected by law because it’s far too subjective. Discrimination laws are based on tangible, objective truths. It sucks that you don’t like going to the gym but the law leaves you in the lurch. You have to navigate those problems yourself because being a creep isn’t a crime. If that sounds callous, I don’t mean it to be, but if there were laws dictating social behavior and discriminatory spaces, this world would be a worse place than you can imagine.
Because that totally won’t immediately be abused for transphobia. Like, I get the complaint, but think through the implications for five seconds
There just flat out is no solution to gender seperate spaces.
Allow only biological women/men? Transphobic, issues for some intersex people, and you now have transpeople that are clearly not the gender their birth sex suggests in the “”“right”“” bathroom, so even for transphobes this doesn’t work.
Have someone stand in front and judge if people are feminine/masculine enough? Absolutely not holy fuck
Allow people based on gender identity? Any bad actor can just pretend. Absolutely the easiest option though, and imo the best one if we have to seperate them. Thankfully also the one usually implemented.
Allow people based on the gender on their ID? Still sucks for trans people as getting that changed isn’t necessarily easy, plus assuming we don’t havr someone check everyone at the entrance, trans people would be more likely to have someone complain and have to justify themselves. If we make it as easy as it probably should be, bad actors can abuse it just the same.
Thinking about how to make women feel safer in for example gyms seems like a better long term solution for absolutely everyone, but also doesn’t feel like it’s talked about a lot.
Even contemplating that “pretending a gender identity” is a backdoor for bad actors is preposterous though. No such evidence from all countries that have self-identification laws. On the contrary abusers and rapists are prevalent in all walks of life without even going through the fuss of “pretending to be trans”. Scores of trans people use bathrooms all the same because they are cis-passing. Majority of women feeling ok with trans women using the bathroom. Cis people with non-conforming appearance getting targeted, prominently lesbians. So just the fact that this makes the list is unacceptable and an outcome of toxic evangelical propaganda on the subject. Bathroom usage by gender identity is enabling exactly zero predators. So please stop bringing it up.
Thinking about how to make women feel safer in for example gyms seems like a better long term solution for absolutely everyone, but also doesn’t feel like it’s talked about a lot.
That’s because it ends up being the bear meme discussion in microcosm. (At least every time I’ve seen it come up.)
Context - cisgendered man here, FWIW.
Every time I’ve seen any discussion of helping women to feel safer in any context, that discussion is full of men who are offended that women even feel the need to be safer, because they tend not to believe that sexual harassment is as common for women as every woman in my life has repeatedly told me it is. So the conversation becomes about the women being “oversensitive” (or similar euphamism/synonym), not about making the discussed environment safer.
I can’t fathom why I’d give a shit about not being able to go work out a particular gym because women wanted a place to feel safe, unless it was literally the only gym within 50 miles. (And I’m doubtful that’s a common scenario.)
how to make women feel safer in for example gyms
The real problem is that gyms don’t pay enough to hire enough good employees. Most people who work at a gym are there because they have free access to the gym. Gym owners are cheap, mainly because gym-goers are cheap.
Have you ever been to a bank and felt unsafe? That’s much rarer because banks have spent a lot of time and money on making you feel safe. Any customers are under constant surveillance and usually on their best behavior.
That sucks. MRAs are idiots, and should have just moved to form their own men-only spaces instead of trying to ruin the women-only spaces.
Some of them did, they were forced by their respective courts to be inclusive to all.
and should have just moved to form their own men-only spaces
In CA? Those are illegal except in very narrow exceptions. In most other places they’d be subject to anger, protests, and might be illegal there too (state laws are all over the place on anything that’s up to the states).
Like Title IX, everyone loves the idea of a law mandating that you can’t discriminate right up until someone who’s an “acceptable” target for discrimination makes use of it. See basically any time a boy has invoked Title IX.
My personal favorite example of that being feminist philosopher and icon Mary Daly, who’s teaching career ended due to Title IX because she refused to teach male students.
MRAs are idiots
Ironically, MRAs would love to see the Equal Rights Amendment (so long as it doesn’t include the Hayden Rider or similar) or a federal version of Unruh passed more than anything else. But then it would immediately be used to attack things with explicit sex discrimination like differences in pricing based on sex, differences in facilities offered based on sex, Selective Service, VAWA (actually not sure if the last re-authorization cleaned up the relevant language or not) and the ACA (the contraceptive mandate explicitly only applies to contraceptives for women, including barrier and surgical methods - this means that for example there’s no requirement to cover vasectomy and if vasalgel or the like ever hits market there would be no requirement to cover that either). Likewise, if women are ever required to sign up for Selective Service it will launch dozens of lawsuits across a bunch of states because a bunch of states require men to provide their selective service number to qualify for various things.
The reason there are no women only gyms in California is because men’s rights groups sued them for discrimination.
California has one of the strongest anti-discrimination laws in the country, the Unruh Civil Rights Act: “All persons within the jurisdiction of this state are free and equal, and no matter what their sex, race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, disability, medical condition, genetic information, marital status, or sexual orientation are entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges, or services in all business establishments of every kind whatsoever.”
It turns out that yes, male is a sex and that means that no, you cannot discriminate against them as a business in California. The same men’s rights group put an end to differential pricing based on sex at bars (aka ladies’ night). You would likely be screaming about the sexism from the top of your lungs if a business refused to take women as customers, or charged women more for the same thing, or any of that sort of thing.
The group in question (NCFM) is better known for challenging Selective Service, and their VP and lawyer in charge of that case being murdered (the killer would then cross the country and shoot two more men [killing one and wounding the other] in a “misogynistic attack” against a federal judge [the two men were her husband and son] before killing himself). The judge in question presided over a different Selective Service related case that the killer had been a lawyer on.
Hypothetically, a gym could probably get away with women-only hours if they either also had a matching number of men-only hours or charged men a discounted rate adjusted for the fact they’re paying for less gym access.
You would likely be screaming about the sexism from the top of your lungs if a business refused to take women as customers, or charged women more for the same thing, or any of that sort of thing.
There’s a bar right down the street. Ah, excuse me, “private club” where this very thing is true. My reaction? shrug My wife’s reaction? shrug
All it takes is to dentify as a woman then you can go In, I don’t get why people are complaining just tell them you’re a woman and go in.
I kinda assumed the point was to demonstrate gender is meaningless, or are they excluding trans people and basing it on sex?
Gender may be a social construct, but I recognize that I’m privileged to not have to care too much about mine.
Now, the point of the exhibition was actually about historical men-only places where women experienced exclusion. The art is not only the exhibition itself, but also the sense of rejection that men feel in not being allowed in. I would be surprised if they didn’t allow transwomen and non-binary folk in, as there are many spaces that don’t welcome them even now.
The artist said she wants to demonstrate that gender is meaningless, I think a lot of people are painting their opinions over the artists because they assume because they’re sure their opinion is right that all right thinking people will agree. It’s similar with science, people assume the thing that feels scientific is right even when actual science disagrees.
men can just choose to identify as women if they want to go in because gender, according to the artist, is a meaningless construct. It’s a fairly common idea, people can choose to identify as any gender for any reason for any amount of time.
I’m having a hard time finding the article right now but I seem to recall that the artwork was curated in a way to showcase artwork that previously hung in men-only spaces.
I don’t disagree about the artist having that view of gender but I still think that there are people (both cis and trans) to whom their gender is very important for them, and again I recognize the privilege of feeling that gender is unimportant.
I think the idea of teaching laundry and ironing on Sundays is hilarious though
brb gonna change my private school’s status to a urinal because I believe that women’s place is at home and therefore they shouldn’t get any education. For a good a good measure, I’ll do the same to the office building, the driving school, and the airline I own.
The point is to draw attention to the stupid laws and get it fixed. The initial premise is shocking and I can understand that it’s upsetting, and it’s okay to feel that way. No judgements here.
Just channel that anger towards the correct target