For many Jews, Zionism signifies a connection to Israel. But a large number of student protesters see the violence in Gaza as a logical conclusion of the late 19th century ideology

Archived version: https://archive.ph/d7IaR

105 points
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Became? Always was… even at the end of WW2. Albert Einstein, who was Ashkenazi Jewish himself, even opposed it. Taking away a native populace’s land and giving it over to outsiders has always been, and always will be, controversial.

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42 points

Stealing people’s land from underneath them and giving it to another people (especially based on religion or ethnicity) is both a crime against humanity and a violation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (created 6 months after establishing the state of Israel), but the west just accepted Zionism because the majority of jews were white Europeans, the colonialists who dominated the league of nations didn’t consider brown people to be people, and none of them wanted to allocate any of their own land due to their own antisemitism.

Zionism has always been a crime. We were just lied to and told things were “complicated” by the same colonialist oligarchs who call the Islamic extremism their own historic crimes created and amplified “complicated”.

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-8 points

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but there’s a reason why European Jews were in such ample supply. It’s hard to negatively judge early Jewish Zionism when many of the Jews in question were liberated from genocide and given their ancestral home back. The actions of the right wing government in Israel don’t speak towards the large number of Israelis that oppose the actions of the government or their particular view of Zionism. The term Zionism has been co-opted by various groups to the point where it no longer carries meaning but instead becomes caricature for a certain type of villain.

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10 points

Not too complicated. Zionism basically boils down to “Israel is Jew home country (for mythical reasons)” therefore “Jews should strive to achieve it”. It may have other connotations but I don’t think a lot of people are confused about this.

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5 points

and given their ancestral home back

?

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-18 points
Removed by mod
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5 points

Your comment in “How ‘Zionist’ became a slur on the US left” posted in !globalnews@lemmy.zip was removed.
Reason: Rule 4.

Please read the community rules.

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-4 points

How was it not inclusive? I mean, sure, it could interpreted as uncivil or bait, but rule 4? Something I’ve learned is the more vague you are, the more you cover your own ass. Hell, you could probably wrap rule 4 and 5 under rule 3, that’d work perfectly.

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14 points

The settlers that currently take land from Palestinians on the west bank, those specific people, not some group centuries ago that those people might share some part of their identity with, were not there before the specific currently living people that they are taking that land from. People living now matter more than some vague historical claims. If the area had been invaded by Islam and the land taken from Isreal within living memory, then sure, it would be just that it be returned to those it was taken from, but taking the land from people who have been there generations to give to people that have not been there for that time and had established lives elsewhere, results in people being uprooted and forced from their homes needlessly. Any history along the lines of what religion was where first is irrelevant to that fact.

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-4 points

Alright, if you want to get more modern, how do you think Gaza got to be 99% Sunni Muslim? What happened to their minorities? Was it a nice thing?

It’s rhetorical, but the fact of the matter is that Hamas is evil, and needs to not exist, just like nazis need to not exist.

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1 point

I’d be careful with the “living memory” argument. Lots of pretty recent colonialism and atrocity occurred outside of “living memory”

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7 points

Gosh - who would’ve thought that people might have a negative view of an explicitly elitist and xenophobic ideology bent on the violent appropriation of land and the wholesale slaughter of any of the “filthy animals” currently living there who might dare to oppose them?

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18 points

Student protesters say that their criticisms of Zionism are rooted in the state of Israel’s displacement and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Pro-Israel activists have responded by defending the term

Defends the term, doesn’t deny the ethnic cleansing.

The Viennese journalist Theodor Herzl launched the First Zionist Congress in 1897. His project for a new homeland for Jews with self-rule came in reaction to the rampant, violent antisemitism in Europe and was shaped by political ideas of that time. He became committed to a Jewish state in Palestine, which he called “an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism”

uhh… The launcher of the First Zionist Congress just out and out being racist against the Palestinians right there.

Today, a generation of students emphasizes what they see as the settler-colonial nature of Herzl’s vision.

No, no… it literally was Herzl’s vision.

The shift in opinions on Zionism has been particularly confusing for many Jewish Americans… a small minority describe it as “privileging Jewish rights over non-Jewish rights in Israel” (10%).

Only 10% actually are correct.

Arguably for the first time, a Palestinian perspective on Zionism is taking center stage

No, its the Israeli AND the Palestinian perspective on Zionism.

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57 points

Nationalism is almost always bad, why should Israeli Nationalism be any different?

Ask yourself: if it was any other country or ethnicity, would it be “good” nationalism? Would an American or Russian Nationalist worry you? How about a Rwandan or Serbian nationalist?

Chances are the answer is “yes” (unless you’re a fascist), so why does Israeli nationalism get a free pass?

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21 points
*

Like religion, you have to look at the context of nationalism, it can be a liberatory force in the context of oppression; look at the Viet Minh and the IRA.

I’d be hard pressed to tell a Dakota Sioux that their nationalism is bad.

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It’s not a slur any more than calling someone a Nazi is a slur. In both cases, the fascists chose the term for themselves and use it to self-identify. Leftists likewise use the terms with all the derision they deserve. Simple as. If I call a Nazi a Nazi, it’s not a slur just because I think Nazis are evil and disgusting and are in need of redacting. So too with Zionists.

If someone is using the term to describe themselves, but they (correctly) think that settler-colonialism is wrong and that the state of Israel is a genocidal ethnostate, then they are misusing the term, according to both the vast majority of Zionists as well as the people who oppose Zionism. As always, what is antisemitic is the equating of Zionism with Judaism, it is not antisemitic or saying a “slur” to accurately use the term Zionist as an epithet. It’s disgusting but unsurprising how the Zionists keep harping on this to try to make themselves out to be the ones being persecuted.

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