Lemdro.id

-14 points

1 month ago

So what you are saying is we should nuke Russia because they are all cartoonishly evil fanatics of genocide.

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Alphane Moon@lemmy.world

11 points

1 month ago

I never said cartoonishly evil.

The term I used was “genocidal imperialist”. Supporting extermination of Ukrainiain culture, language and identity with the goal of territorial expansion. A belief in ethno-national hierarchy system that sees certain ethnicities/nationalities as inferior and not having the right to self-determination.

Such beliefs have a strong majority support among the russian population (if not overwhelming majority support).

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-11 points

1 month ago

I guess cartoons for adults then. What’s your solution? To me it sounds like dehumanising propaganda that push for indiscriminate extermination…

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Alphane Moon@lemmy.world

9 points

1 month ago

For you these are cartoons for adults. For those who have deal with russian imperialism, it’s reality.

A tangent of sorts; do you think you would be able to guess the number genocides conducted by the russians since just in the last 100 years? Without doing a web search.

You might be able to count the big ones, but I am curious what do you think your chance of guessing correctly would be?

Note: I don’t know the exact number (I can name a list of course). I am just curious what you think about this thought experiment.

To get to a solution, you need to at least recognize the problem. Things like not engaging in historical revisionism. Not rejecting any and all research findings unless they paint russian society in a way that reflects how you want the world to be.

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-4 points

1 month ago

No I don’t think I would. Other than my ignorance about the facts themselves, there’s the issue that I don’t have a precise definition of genocide in mind.

I’d probably have the best chance by saying 0 and hoping the definition of Genocide is so narrow it doesn’t really apply to shit.

And I’d give me a 30% chance.

Tangent asides, I am under no impression that the Russian Oligarchy now, the Zar before, the URRS in between, has excerted power in oppressive way just like any other country has done and stopped doing only in the face of new ways to accrue power.

And because in all those instances, from China, to the USA, to all of Europe, through history, people were pushed and pulled into believing all sort of crazy stuff, such as “the others” being inferior, evil, a threat or all of the above, I doesn’t really tell me much that the polupation that is subjected to a long lasting propaganda apparatus is affected by such propaganda.

I go as far as doubting I would be able to see past it if myself I was born in that situation.

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Alphane Moon@lemmy.world

4 points

1 month ago

I wouldn’t be able to answer accurately either.

The definition of genocide is an interesting one. I have a DIY definition that may not be listed in the human rights charts, but has what I would argue a rather lucid quality to it.

“Actions against you specifically, your immediate and extended family and your broader ethno-national group that make you wonder if the russians want to destroy you.”

On some level, I do agree with what you’re saying about the role of oppression and propaganda.

But how do you know this is the primary cause? What if it’s a choice the russians want to make?

It’s unfortunately not unheard of for whole nations (i.e. close to or at overwhelming majority support level) to support and engage in genocidal imperialism. Arguably, one would only continue at this path if they have the benefit of people white-washing their actions, no?

The reason I brought up choice earlier is that I do not believe russians are “inherently” genocidal or that they are not capable of change. This would be a ridiculous argument. I do believe that they do want to change, they like being genocidal imperialists.

And they will continue to do so until there is pushback (they get treated like they treat others) and less people buy into their white-washing propaganda.

This is not a cartoon for adults.

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-4 points

1 month ago

Framed in this way (assuming a population completely corrupted by propaganda) it becomes a matter of responsibility, not unlike what we already faced in germany.

I believe the proper course of action, in this instance and for posterity alike, is focusing and who is knowingly engaging in propaganda, and not who is being fed a false narrative.

It’s a broad answer and it leaves very little room for proportionate retaliation, but it’s the only approach, I believe, that foster progress and rightfully frame the issue of division and conflict in a tangible cause and effect dialectic.

If we now say, “Russian has let themselves be convinced to behave like monsters, therefore we must tread them as ones”, all future wars can and will be framed in this way. If we focus and the root causes, if we condemn manipulation of information, uneven education as among the greatest, most unacceptable, criminal act, I can see a world where at the very least, if you behave like a monster that’s out of your own “disposition”.

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