AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

For context Libs on Bsky are passing aroudn this fascists shithead’s bullshit book “On Tyranny” as a manual for “resisting authoritarianism” THE CALL IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE YOU LIBERAL SHITWIPES!

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32 points
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My favorite stuff to read in genocide studies is when Western academics shiv each other on political grounds.

Norman Naimark is an interesting case. He’s a super right wing guy, Hoover Institution, literally Galician parents and all that. Wrote a book called Stalin’s Genocides

He’s unique because he posits that the definition of genocide should be broadened and one of this hobby horses (that I interestingly enough entertain and mildly agree with) is that kulaks became a targeted class. Which brings up some interesting points like, if I manufacture a class of people that are labeled as enemies, and I just slide those goalposts to be able to push more people into that class does that constitute a genocide? It’s a very postmodern proposal to redefine genocide.

Ironically another right wing guy called Michael Ellman does not like Naimarks theory because:

“The liberal interpretation of genocide that Naimark favors is… in line with recent jurisprudence. However, he fails to point out the boomerang effect of such an interpretation. According to a recent book by a U.S. specialist on genocide… the massacres of some of the native Americans by European settlers, the Atlantic Slave Trade, the use of a nuclear bomb against Nagasaki…should all be considered genocides. This would make the United States founded on two genocides and guilty… of more… In view of this boomerang effect, my advice to Western governments is to stick to a strict constructionist interpretation of genocide. Hence, I disagree with Naimark’s wish to classify Stalin’s mass murders as genocide.”

It would stain the credibility of the United States…

Ironically, Snyder and Applebaum (like Naimark) point to the USSR’s advocacy for current and specific definition of genocide as the reason that USSR actions don’t fall into the legalistic criteria of genocide, they also do not see this potential for blowback. Ellman doesn’t even acknowledge things in recent history that would fit the extended definition (which would effectively add all ethnic cleansing into the criterion) such as “Mexican Repatriation”.

It’s almost like this term is a political football in-as much as it is a descriptor of historic atrocity.

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26 points

kulaks became a targeted class

Turns out communists target classes. Weren’t they extremely explicit about this? And the pearl-clutching libs then say that “every domestic enemy of the state was called a kulak”

Or do you mean, like, they were all explicitly targeted with death as the only allowable outcome rather than the dissolution of there class? (a number of them were killed either way, of course)

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27 points
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Removed by mod
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23 points

GOOD POST

I love being in a leftist space where people can actually critically analyze the actual successes and failures of communist states in good faith. You’ve given me much to think about.

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17 points
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It’s really refreshing to see a criticism of Stalin (and the Bolsheviks more broadly) that goes beyond the token “criticisms” tankie spaces usually make (e.g. Stalin shouldn’t have stopped at Berlin, the mass relocations were bad but totally not unforced atrocities, etc.) while also not falling into the shitlib “Stalin was literally Hitler who fusion danced with Hitler to form a double Hitler and do hella genocide” kind of shit.

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good post. where can I read more of this type of stuff?

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6 points
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Under Leninism peasants are not proletarians. Let me underline that. Under Leninism anyone who worked on a farm was not a worker in the communist sense.

This is just a silly thing for you to say. “Proletarian” does not mean the same thing as “worker,” it refers to someone who is reliant on selling their labor for wages. Peasants and proletarians are both workers, and it’s a basic feature of the development of (e.g. European) capitalism that there were successive stages of owning and working classes.

I really don’t think the butter-churn benchmark was representative of Leninist theory about divisions in the peasantry* (which is not me saying that they didn’t make catastrophic errors). It feels to me like saying “People engaged in ritual cannibalism during the Cultural Revolution” as a way of characterizing the CR. Yes, such a thing did happen as far as I can tell, but it’s not like it was a national issue or part of Mao’s doctrine, it was a bizarre thing that took hold among certain factions in a certain region during a period of upheaval.

Obviously, Mao handled the peasant question much better, it’s probably what he is given the most credit for, but he does something similar in his ““cosmology”” in terms of dividing the peasantry into three major types, (poor, middle, rich) and aligning himself fundamentally with the poor while accepting collaboration with the middle, making distinctions about “well-to-do middle peasants” and so on. Here’s an example from Stalin. This is not to say Lenin and Stalin did not make grave errors, I repeat that they did, but when you were sneering about a ““cosmology,”” you were failing to explain these differences against Mao.

Lastly, I admit that Trotsky was more honest before his exile, but I really question using him as a source for criticizing Stalin when he would historically go on to do any anticommunist thing he had to in order to attack Stalin. I don’t think you need to go and get, idk, some troubled journal entry from Molotov, your point is made, I just think speaking of Trotsky as though he’s credible is, uh, fraught.

*Edit: I reread your post and it seems to be suggesting that the butter-churn thing actually came from Moscow. Is that so?

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Yeah, its not like anyone who matters has ever actually given a shit about genocide, by any definition heretofore proposed.

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16 points
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Yeah fun fact that I just wanted to look it up. Naimark has basically gone on an Israeli podcast and has toed the academic line, about how you can’t just destroy Palestinians because you want to. He didn’t call it a genocide, he explicitly denied it was a genocide but said it was ethnic cleansing. And he also used the term “the so-called Nakba”.

The host by the end of it looks so sad because he really thought he was gonna get this Jewish Genocide Studies scholar to definitively say, YOU CAN TREAT THE PALESTINIANS LIKE DOGS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qocuOyP4i2g

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10 points

My understanding is “ethnic cleansing” is a euphemism for genocide with no distinct meaning. It’s used to launder certain genocides as “less bad”. Is that a fair assessment?

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Ugh. So many former humans choosing to join a ‘protocols of the elders of Zion’/‘the turner diaries’ crossover LARP, and everyone just keeps kayfabe. Like they can be neutral on this shit.

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I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:

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