Comment by Babs [she/her]@hexbear.net on I feel optimistic regarding China and Russia in their conflicts against the US, but I'm very concerned and a bit doomer towards Palestine :(

Time is on the side of the Russians in Ukraine and the Chinese on pretty much anything else when it comes to confronting the US empire.

But ever since the ceasefire in Lebanon and the fall of Assad I can’t help but feel that the Palestinian cause is getting worse every day. No one is lifting a finger for them except the Yemenis and it only seems that the Zionist fucks are getting closer to their objectives.

Civil war in “Israel” when? True Promise 3 when (lol)?

It doesn’t help that some of the loudest voices cheering for Assad’s fall where Palestinians and that sectarism is strong against Shia’s…

What is imperialism?

Man, you should probably already know if you wanna be having these conversations lmao.

To dumb it all the way down, when a soveriegn nation marches over an internationally recognized border to try to take their land/resources, that’s imperialism.

When Israel occupies Palestinian lands and lobs bombs at their hospitals and food supply and settlers seize territory, that’s imperialism.

When the US meddles in the Middle East or South America to fund right wing death squads to topple governments that’s imperialism

When the Soviet Union did the exact same thing in the exact same places, that was still imperialism

When China took over Hong Kong and tries to take islands in the Phillipines, that’s imperialism

When Trump threatens to takeover Canada and Greenland, that’s imperialism

When Russia invaded Ukraine, that was imperialism

It’s pretty easy to spot the imperialist, they’re the ones crossing the internationally recognized border with tanks and armies

So imperialism is just a synonym for invasion?

Was the Soviet Union imperialist when they marched into Berlin?

yeah the nazis had a right to self-determination, just like the Chinese nationalists of the ROC

So imperialism is just a synonym for invasion?

No, the first thing I said was that I was dumbing it all the way down

Was the Soviet Union imperialist when they marched into Berlin?

I’m not sure i understand your thought process here. They were the ones who got invaded.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

I personally choose to distinguish between the country invading another and the country getting invaded itself but then going on to not lose the war.

Does this distinction seem reasonable?

Your distinction isn’t really reasonable because you’re still just saying all invasions are imperialist (now with the qualifier that this is only the case if you didn’t get invaded first).

Was Abe Lincoln being imperialist when invading the Confederate states? China liberating Tibet? What about if China invaded Taiwan right now? I mean, that one actually wouldn’t even count as imperialist under your own very broad definition given that there’s an international consensus that Taiwan is part of China.

Your distinction isn’t really reasonable because you’re still just saying all invasions are imperialist (now with the qualifier that this is only the case if you didn’t get invaded first).

Which invasions do you want to praise as “non imperialist”?

Was Abe Lincoln being imperialist when invading the Confederate states?

Read up on the Battle of Fort Sumter.

China liberating Tibet?

…yes. China annexing Tibet was absolutely imperialist.

What about if China invaded Taiwan right now?

Would China be upsetting the understood international “status quo” by doing so?

I mean, that one actually wouldn’t even count as imperialist under your own very broad definition given that there’s an international consensus that Taiwan is…

I genuinely feel my above answer should’ve been super obvious but alright.

Once again, I don’t have an overly broad definition. I broke it down to simple terms. I think the problem here might not be with the specific definition but any definition.

I’m sorry if this is a misread but it really feels like you’re trying to just nitpick the definition endlessly as some sort of exhausting rhetorical tactic to keep me constantly backtracking so that we can’t actually talk about this blatantly obvious invasion in front of us.

Like, Russia marched soldiers and parachuted into Kyiv trying to assassinate the president to overthrow it.

How honestly do you rationalize that as okay behavior for a state power while arguing against imperialism?

I think the problem here might not be with the specific definition but any definition.

Not really? You haven’t addressed the Leninist definition. The reason I’ve been nitpicking yours is that it makes anti-imperialism non-actionable. It’s like if I decide to be a communist and I don’t like social classes because class conflict creates violence and oppression, it means I must condemn when socialist states use state organs to oppress capitalists. It’s ahistorical and fails to inform a productive course of action.

The way you readily call the Chinese invasion of Tibet imperialist shows my point. By what means should the serfs have been liberated? Was it incorrect for the new socialist state to liberate them, because there was a “legitimate” Tibetan state that had a justified claim to the land? Are the class relations, the material conditions, all irrelevant to our assessment of the situation because Mao had no “right” to do that?

I understand that I’m being annoying, and it probably just feels like I’m going out of my way to contradict you when the intuitive definition of imperialism would show that the invasions I’m talking about were indeed imperialist. The point is to get you to see why we like the way Lenin put it, because it is a lot more actionable and gives us a plan to strategize around. The vibes based approach doesn’t give us a way to defeat imperialism, only to condemn away.

Man

check her pronouns please

To dumb it all the way down, when a soveriegn nation marches over an internationally recognized border to try to take their land/resources, that’s imperialism.

Still a useless definition. Essentially all wars are imperialist under this definition, unless it’s the most insignificant little border skirmish.

When the Soviet Union did the exact same thing in the exact same places, that was still imperialism

When the hell did the Soviet Union fund RWDS? I live in latam and the only influence of the Soviet Union I know is supporting national liberation movements. The US has only done the same when the movements were corrupt and put landowners’ interests on top of the peasantry’s (i.e. those who wanted to keep colonial relations but under a new flag).

When China took over Hong Kong and tries to take islands in the Phillipines, that’s imperialism

Because Hong Kong being a satellite state of the West used to destabilize the only remaining major communist power would be so much better? Like it wasn’t just blatantly stolen Terra Nulius style by the British to traffic opium into China?

England takes Hong Kong, that’s imperialism.

China takes it back, also imperialism i guess.

Exactly! A country should belong to the people who live in in and not to neighboring empires who call dibs on someone else’s home.

This view is typically called anti-imperialism.

Exactly! A country should belong to the people who live in in and not to neighboring empires who call dibs on someone else’s home.

Then you should be supporting the people of Donbas in their anti-imperialist struggle against the neo-nazi Ukrainian regime that had been trying to ethnically cleanse them and seize control of all their resources to sell off to western private interests. Just as you should be cheering on the Russians who came to their aid and prevented them from being wiped out by said nazis. But instead you’ve confused anti-imperialists for imperialists and mixed up the nazis with the victims because you have swallowed the western narrative.

If everything you said was factually true, then you’re right I should be.

Is America’s hold over my state imperialist? Is Germany occupying Berlin imperialist?

I’m going to move 2 steps ahead here and just say that the position that’s being argued for here is some platonic ideal Hong Kong that would be independent of both American and Chinese influence.

Is America’s hold over my state imperialist?

Are movements in your state to democratically organize a secession movement violently suppressed?

Is Germany occupying Berlin imperialist?

Same question. Germany could only start to be considered as “occupying” Berlin if Berlin doesn’t want to be part of Germany.

What is Doomer? :(

It is a nebulous thing that may include but is not limited to Climate Change posts or Collapse posts.

Include sources when applicable for doomer posts, consider checking out !bloomer@www.hexbear.net once in awhile.

I feel optimistic regarding China and Russia in their conflicts against the US, but I'm very concerned and a bit doomer towards Palestine :(

doomer

!doomer@hexbear.net

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