Comment by Freesoftwareenjoyer@lemmy.world on Does it feel like the fediverse is exclusively used by older tech nerds?

The mastodon and lemmy content I’m seeing feels like 90% of it comes from people who are:

~30 years old or older
tech enthusiasts/workers
linux users

There’s nothing wrong with that particular demographic or anything, but it doesn’t feel like a win to me if the entire fediverse is just one big monoculture.

I wonder what it is that is keeping more diverse users away? Is picking a server/federation too complicated? Or is it that they don’t see any content that they like?

Thoughts?

What if we can’t make it more approachable? Should we forever rely on corporations and their unethical platforms to be able to communicate? Just because people aren’t willing to learn a few very basic things?

This is not a problem with the technology, but with people.

This is not a problem with people, but with UX design.

We don’t need a corporation to have usable interfaces. Right now, if you visit join-lemmy.org, the main focus is for people wanting to host an instance, which is only a small part of the advanced user base. The common user won’t care about the fact Lemmy is made with rust or that there’s a docker image.

I don’t think it’s only an issue with Lemmy, lots of open-source projects lack user-friendliness and onboarding.

Yes, Lemmy’s UI is very bad. It would be pretty easy to improve it, if only developers understood this. But I think the part that new users complain about the most is federation. At least I’ve seen many posts and comments saying that it’s too confusing.

I don’t think it’s necessarily the job of the developers, the main issue IMO is that there’s not enough involvement from other specialists such as designers in open-source communities.

Sometimes I try to help, but unfortunately not everyone is willing to listen. I’ve noticed there are multiple reasons why UI might be bad in a Free Software project:

developers are not UI experts and they don’t know better
developers are not UI experts and they don’t listen to experts or UI is not their priority
the UI code is so bad that changing it would require rewriting most of the application and nobody has the time to do that, so there is nothing that can be done (this probably doesn’t happen in web apps)

I believe in Lemmy’s case it’s mostly the 2nd point.

IDK about Lemmy devs, but point 2 is so, so common. Making a point about UX or accessibility in 99% of FLOSS project discussion spaces is incredibly stressful; you can have user research, industry best practice, and years of experience on your side, but you’re inevitably met with dismissal and argument. Devs often treat designers as though they’re a bunch of artsy crystal-healing crusties, despite the fact that good UX people base their work on actual research and theory grounded in human behavior and psychology. (Calling use of basic design principles “eye candy” for example) Of course, if a dev makes a decision on technical grounds, it must be treated as scripture as far as any remaining designers on the project are concerned. It’s no wonder so many FLOSS projects have abominable UX.

True. I feel like usually anything I say about UI is interpreted as just my opinion, which in developer’s minds is just as valid as anyone else’s opinion. It maybe kinda makes sense, since those developers don’t really know me, but there is nothing I can say to change their minds. So they remain stuck with a bad, inefficient design for no good reason.

GNOME desktop environment is a good example that having a good UI is possible.

In Lemmy’s case users are forced to take matters into their own hands: !plugins@sh.itjust.works

I agree so much. I feel like your typical user does not need to know 1% of all that. Hell, I don’t even think that they need to know much about the whole instances shebang. Scroll through a feed, see a bunch of users from various federated instances say things, the end. The fediverse aspect is something that could be relegated to a help section or something along these lines. Complexity scares people away.

I seriously wish that Lemmy and the Fediverse in general would boom in popularity because this kind of “free” social media is what people deserve, but I just can’t see it happening with how things are now.

People need to know what an instance is. They need to know what defederating means too. They also need to know why the Fediverse is better than centralized alternatives, because otherwise they won’t care.

Good points. I do think the default community filter should be All instead of Local though.

You are probably right about that. There are other UI improvements that we could and should do too, but Lemmy will probably always be more difficult to use than the centralized alternatives.

I agree that it should be the default option. Thankfully you can change it from your account’s settings, which is very nice.

Can I ask you to educate me on why people need to know? I’m struggling to see your point. Surely people will benefit in some way from knowing how the Fediverse works under the hood, but not everyone needs to know, and as you can see this heavy emphasis on the Fediverse’s inner workings is, instead, turning people away.

People are just very used to having things magically work, and I think that it’s very natural for them to not want to deal with things that they need to make work. Many people never knew how Twitter or Reddit works under the hood, many never cared, but in the Fediverse it’s suddenly brought up as a necessary thing. And I just can’t see how that’s necessary thing to use such a tool. All I’m saying is that UX-wise, many apps in the Fediverse could feel more seamless.

I hear you on the Fediverse being better in many many cases, but I also feel like many of the Fediverse’s features are all but marketable to the average person. Add in the fact that people feel like there is a learning curve, and what you get is that people lose interest very fast.

In order to be able to choose an instance or change it in the future, a user needs to know what it is first. Maybe we could choose it for them randomly (would that be ethical?), but they still need to know where their account is hosted. If their instance gets defederaded by other instances, then they also need to know what defederation is and how it affects them. Those are just basics needed to fully use the Fediverse and the freedoms it gives you. I’m not saying that people should know exactly what ActivityPub protocol is and how it works. But they need to know the basics about how federation works. This is nothing complicated, so I don’t think I’m asking for much.

In centralized platforms users don’t have freedom, so they don’t have to worry about any of this. If they aren’t willing to learn a few basic things in order to have freedom, then there is nothing we can do for them. We can and should try to educate them, but many people don’t see a problem with being abused by corporations. This is not a new problem in software. It has existed for at least 30 years since the Free Software movement was created.

Lemmy has many UI and UX problems and they certainly need to be fixed. But it’s possible that decentralized platforms will always be more complicated to use than centralized ones. If people aren’t willing to learn how to use it, that’s a problem with them, not with this technology.

Okay, you bring very good points, especially on the “changing instance” one. I think I was seeing things from an ideal point of view, where instances just work and there are no reasons to defederate from other instances (but even though I’ve not been on the Fediverse for long, I’ve already seen I think two “big” such cases :( ).

I would say that choosing it for them is not the way, and assigning it randomly isn’t either as there are definitely problems associated with that as well. The best thing that comes to mind is to maybe have some “special” instance (or just an application, kinda like what Mastodon’s Android app does - at least with the new update) whose purpose is to guide users through sign up and choosing an instance. I think this would kill two birds with one stone. Guiding users through instance-selection, maybe briefly explaining what an instance is and eventually pointing to more user-friendly docs, could already be much more manageable for everybody, and could feel like a more seamless experience, similarly to traditional social media.

At the end of the day I feel even more like the Fediverse is almost inherently harder than centralized services, maybe it will take time before people settle with the idea of using something like this. People eventually got how to use the now traditional kind of technology, but I don’t know if it’s because enough time has passed or because it became a necessity (socially speaking).

A few basic things? What are you talking about? Gen-Z doesn’t even know how to use a computer. We’re fucked!

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Does it feel like the fediverse is exclusively used by older tech nerds?

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