A UK Member of Parliament recently suggested that there should be a Government minister for men which would presumably do similar things to the existsing minister for Women.
This has thrown up a series of heated discussions on social media about whether this is part of the ‘backlash’ against feminsm, or whether there is a legitimate need for wider support of men’s issues.
As a man who believes that there are legitimate issues disproportionately affecting men which should be addressed, what I really want help in understanding is the opinion that men don’t need any targetted support.
I don’t want to start a big argument, but I do want to understand this perspective, because I have struggled to understand it before and I don’t like feeling like I’m missing something.
The official position is Minister for Women and Equalities.
And the easy answer to this Tory troll is that (middle-class, white) men already dominate political, economic and social life. Everything is filtered through the eyes of people like them, they don’t need a special platform to get their viewpoint across.
But, this is a lot like March 8th (International Women’s Day) being full of plaintive cries of “why isn’t there an International Men’s Day?”. There is an International Men’s Day and it is a very good thing. It makes sense in a way that “why isn’t there a white history month?” does not.
There are many points of similarity and difference between the various forms of prejudice. And one of the things that makes sexism unique is that prejudice against women inevitably creates a mirror prejudice about (if not intentionally against) men. If being feminine means having emotions other than rage, men are allowed to experience only rage. If being feminine means caring for others, men are not allowed to care for (or about) others.
While there are certainly forms of feminism which are anti-men (most notably the transphobic strain currently getting more attention than it deserves), feminism is fundamentally as important for men as it is for women and the issues facing men exist precisely because of the history of subjugating women. Women’s rights are not in tension with men’s rights (unless you mean the demands of damaged and damaging men who insist that they should have the right to rape women and keep one at home as a sex doll, housekeeper, incubator and child minder).
This article is not perfect but it does make the broader point well: If I Admit That ‘Hating Men’ Is a Thing, Will You Stop Turning It Into a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy?:
Part Four: A List of “Men’s Rights” Issues That Feminism Is Already Working On
Feminists do not want you to lose custody of your children. The assumption that women are naturally better caregivers is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not like commercials in which bumbling dads mess up the laundry and competent wives have to bustle in and fix it. The assumption that women are naturally better housekeepers is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to have to make alimony payments. Alimony is set up to combat the fact that women have been historically expected to prioritize domestic duties over professional goals, thus minimizing their earning potential if their “traditional” marriages end. The assumption that wives should make babies instead of money is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want anyone to get raped in prison. Permissiveness and jokes about prison rape are part of rape culture, which is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want anyone to be falsely accused of rape. False rape accusations discredit rape victims, which reinforces rape culture, which is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to be lonely and we do not hate “nice guys.” The idea that certain people are inherently more valuable than other people because of superficial physical attributes is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to have to pay for dinner. We want the opportunity to achieve financial success on par with men in any field we choose (and are qualified for), and the fact that we currently don’t is part of patriarchy. The idea that men should coddle and provide for women, and/or purchase their affections in romantic contexts, is condescending and damaging and part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to be maimed or killed in industrial accidents, or toil in coal mines while we do cushy secretarial work and various yarn-themed activities. The fact that women have long been shut out of dangerous industrial jobs (by men, by the way) is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to commit suicide. Any pressures and expectations that lower the quality of life of any gender are part of patriarchy. The fact that depression is characterized as an effeminate weakness, making men less likely to seek treatment, is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to be viewed with suspicion when you take your child to the park (men frequently insist that this is a serious issue, so I will take them at their word). The assumption that men are insatiable sexual animals, combined with the idea that it’s unnatural for men to care for children, is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to be drafted and then die in a war while we stay home and iron stuff. The idea that women are too weak to fight or too delicate to function in a military setting is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want women to escape prosecution on legitimate domestic violence charges, nor do we want men to be ridiculed for being raped or abused. The idea that women are naturally gentle and compliant and that victimhood is inherently feminine is part of patriarchy.
Feminists hate patriarchy. We do not hate you.
If you really care about those issues as passionately as you say you do, you should be thanking feminists, because feminism is a social movement actively dedicated to dismantling every single one of them. The fact that you blame feminists—your allies—for problems against which they have been struggling for decades suggests that supporting men isn’t nearly as important to you as resenting women. We care about your problems a lot. Could you try caring about ours?
Thanks for your comment, it’s certainly one of the better considered ones in this thread!
There are many points of similarity and difference between the various forms of prejudice. And one of the things that makes sexism unique is that prejudice against women inevitably creates a mirror prejudice about (if not intentionally against) men. If being feminine means having emotions other than rage, men are allowed to experience only rage. If being feminine means caring for others, men are not allowed to care for (or about) others.
How do we distinguish between legitimate grievances that men may have and the more reactionary/politically divisive. Whenever I hear the above argument, it strikes me as dismissive of legitimate issues and it feels dismissive of my experiences.
In order to affect real change, do we not need to move past dismissing the problems raised by one gender? Isn’t it more likely that we change people’s behaviour by acceptance of their viewpoint rather than telling them they’re just being difficult?
feminism is fundamentally as important for men as it is for women and the issues facing men exist precisely because of the history of subjugating women
I agree with you here, but I think it’s also important to take note of the fact that feminism is a fairly broad church so the idea that there is one ‘feminist perspective’ which cares about men too is, to my mind, undermined by the negation of the importance of men’s issues I commonly see.
I’ve come across a segment of society which seems to believe that men don’t feel emotions in the same way as women, that they should be tough - not cry, ‘be a man’, ‘man up’.
My belief is that a number of men in society are psychologically scarred by regressive beliefs like these and would hazard a guess that these beliefs contribute towards loneliness and suicide. I also believe that it’s a big driver of things like the red pill movement.
Now you might say that this is a feminist issue, in that it’s the result of outmoded gender stereotypes (which probably have a negative impact on women too), and I would broadly agree with you. But until we allow men to come out and say “I suffer too from sexism” I don’t see how we can move past it.
I have never heard of a feminist…
- …pushing for more equality/fairness in custody-cases
- …being against showing men in a stereotypical bad light in ads.
- …being against alimony payments or fairer judge decisions
- …being against prison-rape jokes
- …speaking up for falsely accused men (Till Lindemann, Jonny Depp and so on)
- …being against dangerous work emvironnments or bad work conditions or bad jobs in general
- …pushing for more mental health support for men
- …being against men-only military draft.
It all being part of the patriarchy is maybe true if you want to look at it in this perspective. But I am of the opinion that most of those points would not majorly improve even if feminists would have total political control for the next 10 years.
Because feminists stand up for the rights of women. Which is totally important and good. But will not automatically improve the lifes of men, because its not the aim of most feminists.
Then you haven’t been paying attention. I just posted a years old article, which went viral at the time, pushing for all these things.
Toxic men do have the loudest megaphones. But you can wise up and find better things to listen to.
I mean that may well be that I havent heard of “those” feminists, altho I hear about many things feminists here (in Switzerland) push for. I read the demands of every feministic protest for example and never was there one of the points I mentioned.
I think your comment sounded like victim blaming to me. For example:
Men die (more) in suicides. Feminists (mostly women) fight against the patriarchy, which is a product by men. If the higher suicide numbers is because of the patriarchy, then “its their own fault”.
Thats why I see things like “the patriarchy” or categories like “the men” or “the feminists” very critically as it generalizes too much.
And back to the OP: I dont think that a dedicated “minister for women” can or will help in men-issues, because I don’t believe the logical detour via the patriarchy makes sense. One would have to fight the misandrist laws like the army draft (here in switzerland its mandatory for men but voluntary for women) directly and not shadow-box ““the patriarchy””.
I have never heard of a feminist…
…pushing for more equality/fairness in custody-cases …being against showing men in a stereotypical bad light in ads. …being against alimony payments or fairer judge decisions …being against prison-rape jokes …speaking up for falsely accused men (Till Lindemann, Jonny Depp and so on) …being against dangerous work emvironnments or bad work conditions or bad jobs in general …pushing for more mental health support for men …being against men-only military draft.
Literally every feminist advocates for all of these.
That is so untrue that it’s clear you’re speaking in bad faith. The only people I know against prison rape are feminists, the ‘anti feminists’ are all about “lets hope he drops the soap” jokes.
It’s women who have fought for equal rights in the military, not men, and they’ve taken frontline roles by force.
“Falsely accused men” is not the same as not convicted men. Jonny Depp admitted being physical in court, Till Lindemans case was dropped for lack of evidence, this is super normal in cases of sexual assault because unless it was filmed, evidence is a really tricky thing.
