Something something, paper tiger, Mao was right.
Having organized a coup d’état in Ukraine in 2014, the United States sent its NATO proxy army eastward, giving weapons to Ukraine to fight an ethnic war against its Russian-speaking population and turn Russia’s Crimean naval base into a NATO fortress. This Croesus-level ambition aimed at drawing Russia into combat and depleting its ability to defend itself, wrecking its economy in the process and destroying its ability to provide military support to China and other countries targeted for seeking self-dependency as an alternative to U.S. hegemony.
After eight years of provocation, a new military attack on Russian-speaking Ukrainians was conspicuously prepared, ready to drive toward the Russian border in February 2022. Russia protected its fellow Russian-speakers from further ethnic violence by mounting its own Special Military Operation.
Do y’all genuinely believe this?
I mean it’s literally what happened. It implies a bit of a rosy anthromorphization of the many varied and impersonal security interests that lead a nation-state to war, sure, but factually speaking, that’s how it went down.
So, help me understand what literally happened.
Having organized a coup d’état in Ukraine in 2014
This one has some actual credibility to it; although I don’t agree with the summary it at least seems plausible. Can you send me some arguments I can read for why it was more a coup d’état than a legitimate revolution? What percentage of Ukrainians, as a ballpark, would you estimate supported Yanukovych’s removal?
the United States sent its NATO proxy army eastward
How many Ukrainian troops are literally on the eastern side of the border vs. Russian troops on the western side of the border?
giving weapons to Ukraine to fight an ethnic war against its Russian-speaking population
Around how many literal casualties were there in this war? How many Russian-speaking Ukrainians killed or wounded by NATO weapons (pre-Russian-invasion, if you’re going to argue that the Russian’s special operation was in defense of Ukrainians)?
turn Russia’s Crimean naval base into a NATO fortress
Can you tell me more about the planned fortress? Where is the base or bases planned to be built, and where can I read more about the timelines or other plans?
This Croesus-level ambition aimed at drawing Russia into combat
What statements or actions by US or NATO members can you point to that attempted to “draw” Russia into attacking Ukraine?
depleting its ability to defend itself, wrecking its economy in the process and destroying its ability to provide military support to China and other countries targeted for seeking self-dependency as an alternative to U.S. hegemony.
I’d agree with this part, yes. I’m still lost as to why it’s the US’s fault that it happened.
After eight years of provocation, a new military attack on Russian-speaking Ukrainians was conspicuously prepared, ready to drive toward the Russian border in February 2022.
Can you elaborate on the provocation? Did Ukraine, for example, annex any territory from the Russian Federation, or bomb apartment buildings or hospitals on the Russian side of the border? If they had done either of those things, what would you say a reasonable response from Russia would have been?
Russia protected its fellow Russian-speakers from further ethnic violence by mounting its own Special Military Operation.
How many people injured in this ethnic violence? What was the aim of the special military operation – removing Zelensky from power? Disarming the Ukrainian military? Annexing Ukrainian territory? I’m still trying to get a sense of what is your assertion of what the goals and motives were on the Russian side.
why it was more a coup d’état than a legitimate revolution?
A revolution involves a change in the mode of production. This was a coup with a change of government, regardless of its legitimacy.
What percentage of Ukrainians, as a ballpark, would you estimate supported Yanukovych’s removal?
The issue at hand is whether NATO had a role in it. The statistics are by-the-by.
How many Ukrainian troops are literally on the eastern side of the border vs. Russian troops on the western side of the border?
Nobody is denying that Russia has troops in Ukraine, and I doubt anyone is denying that it gave military support in Eastern Ukraine before the invasion. The question, again, is whether NATO was involved. The two are not mutually exclusive.
planned fortress
I doubt very much that this is literal language. Does it change the meaning if it was imagery, instead?
What statements or actions by US or NATO members can you point to that attempted to “draw” Russia into attacking Ukraine?
It’s in the suggestion that Ukraine could join NATO, which lead to putting NATO nukes within the ‘safe zone’ of Russia’s nuclear program. That is, NATO could nuke Russia before Russia could retaliate.
Can you elaborate on the provocation?
Shelling ethnic Russians. See links above.
Did Ukraine, for example, … bomb apartment buildings or hospitals on the Russian side of the border?
Within Ukraine, the parts inhabited by majority ethnic Russians. See links above.
How many people injured in this ethnic violence?
See links above. Minimum 10,000, likely over 14,000 deaths. Tens of thousands injured. Millions displaced.
What was the aim of the special military operation – removing Zelensky from power? Disarming the Ukrainian military? Annexing Ukrainian territory?
If you believe Russia, demilitarisation of and denazification within Ukraine, to prevent the indefinite targeting of ethnic Russians. If you believe NATO? Who the fuck knows; they change their interpretation every week.
I’m about to head out of town for a while, so I don’t really have time right now to talk about all your questions. But here’s a quick overview. It’s is a fairly old article from just before the war, but I thought it was a pretty good overview of how we got here. There’s a great deal of citations, and I suggest you fact check them for yourself.
Oh shit! You’re right! Thanks friend, I was so close to being tricked by evil Putler, but you saved me with your comment! You’re important and special and absolutely have original thoughts that aren’t just empty regurgitation of things you’ve been told to believe! You’re absolutely a free thinker for realising that Putin is Voldemort and Zelenskyy is Harry Potter! And you’ve helped me become a free thinker too! Slobber Zucchini! Now I’ll be off to watch a Marvel movie and clap and cheer when Iron Man and Captain America appear on screen, because the US and billionaires are heroes who save the day from evil baddies! Thanks friend, I’m now a better person because of what you just commented, you’re so important, special and free thinker!
You are welcome to read the OSCE recorded ceasefire violations in which you find the majority of violations coming from Ukrainian govt troops and militias before the war and they brought out armaments forbidden under Minsk 2.
Bro the US government literally uses Michael Hudson’s work as a guide, you have no idea who you are talking about
If you’re talking about his book super imperialism, it’s not a guide but an exposition. The fact it’s used as a guide just tells us how good the people doing imperialism are at hiding it that the rest of their organization doesn’t even know and how well written it is. I’m not sure what you’re reading from this but I hope it’s similar to my interpretation?
Do you know of Hudson? Of his track record? This isn’t a rhetorical question. I’m genuinely curious.
He predicted the 2008 thing before it happened so I’d say his track record is uh decent.
Just turn on CNN, Reddit, or FOX, it’ll be easier to get it straight from the source then any watered down explanation this lib will give.
Russia annexed territory from Ukraine, and was amassing troops for a further invasion. US intelligence said as much, Russia denied any such plans, then invaded, and ever since, hundreds of thousands of Russian and Ukrainian human beings on Ukrainian soil have been having their flesh shredded by high-powered weapons.
I’d say the fact that Russia:
- Annexed quite a bit of Ukrainian territory before the war
- Lied about its plans to invade, and
- Has troops on the ground all over Ukraine
… shouldn’t really be facts in dispute, and to me those that adds up to “Russia is in the wrong” even without adding in any additional facts which might be more disputable. But you don’t see it that way?
No, I do not in the slightest; considering your analysis rather tellingly leaves out Amerika’s armament of fascists, said armed fascist pogroms against “ethnic Russians” in their territory, the endless violations of the Minsk agreements on the part of the West, and, oh yeah; Amerika literally blew up Nordstream to cut off Germany’s access to Russian gas.
So forgive me when I see you clutching pearls about “how many people injured in this ethnic violence” and think you’re literally so full of shit that when they give you your pre-burial enema, you’ll lose five and a half feet of height.
