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-4 points

Cooperatives still need a management layer just like any other large organization. Meanwhile, the reason that cooperatives don’t have to pay owners is also the reason cooperatives are unable to get the initial investment.

You keep repeating here that the advantages of coops should overcome exploitation, but the reality is that they don’t. We have over a century of history showing this. You just keep ignoring the elephant in the room here and repeating over and over how you think this shouldn’t be the case, while it demonstrably is.

Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.

I’m not sure what this has to do with the point regarding competition and innovation under a communist system. USSR could demonstrably innovate, and was doing so better than the west in many areas.

Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.

Yes, it actually is and many books have been written on this subject over the years. It’s not just the exponential growth that’s the problem, it’s the whole capitalist competition which leads to capital concentration and monopolies. Capitalism isn’t a stable system. Winners of competition grow, and they become harder to compete with because it takes increasingly more initial capital to do so. A scrappy startup isn’t going to take on Amazon for example. And even in cases where new companies do better, the established ones can simply buy them out.

Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.

Based on the actual history of capitalism it does not thrive in tough times. Once again, I implore you to learn some actual history instead of just making things up. Spend some time to educate yourself.

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1 point

Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.

Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.

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-4 points

Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution.

That’s a nonsensical argument. You don’t flip a switch and transition from a capitalist model to a communist one. The revolution puts the working class in charge of society, and then it’s a process of figuring out how to build a communist system. The transitional period is called socialism. Again, I encourage you to read this explanation https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/3228-lenin-s-three-theoretical-arguments-about-the-dictatorship-of-the-proletariat

Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives.

I’m simply pointing out to you, that this has been tried in many different ways for over a century with little to show for it. Since you’re the one claiming this is a viable approach despite over a century of failure, it’s on you to demonstrate why people should continue trying this when it’s not working.

Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution.

Lots of successful communist revolutions happened, no successful examples of what you’re proposing exist.

Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.

Capitalism breaking down is a big aspect of what leads to revolutions. And the tough times are directly caused by late stage capitalism as we’re seeing happening today in the west. If the ruling capitalist class was capable of changing course then revolutions wouldn’t happen.

Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.

People who don’t understand the value of learning from prior experiences can be safely dismissed because they will never accomplish anything.

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1 point

Thanks for the high quality references.

The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.

Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.

You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.

My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.

Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.

The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.

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1 point

Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?

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-4 points

Every large organization needs management. When large groups of people organize to do complex tasks, then the work needs to be coordinated in some way. Highly recommend reading this short explanation of why management is needed https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm

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1 point

The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?

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1 point

The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.

This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.

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