Why YSK: Your signals alert other drivers as to what you’re doing; a signal bulb costs a few bucks and is usually a quick and easy repair to do yourself (consult YouTube); and any place that regulates motor vehicles probably requires you to have working turn signals. So knowing when and how to replace a burned out signal bulb can save you an interaction with law enforcement.
Adding: You can diagnose which bulb is out by turning on your hazard lights and checking all four corners of your car. It’ll be the one not flashing.
This is also probably a good time to check your brake lights. Put something heavy on the pedal or have a friend hold it down and check that all three brake lights illuminate. Replacing a burned out brake light is also usually pretty cheap, quick, and easy.
it’s perfectly legitimate to do
Yeah, it’s illegal here in Germany. It’s likely considered a form of coercion and two wrongs don’t make a right. And it’s dangerous.
Same thing to get super close to other cars on the left lane, flash your lights and have your indicators signalling to the left constantly. It’s kind of a dick move. And bad accidents have happened because of this. But it happens every day on the streets.
I don’t participate in that behaviour. I can’t be angry at the world the whole time. And there are soo many bad drivers out there. It’ll take you ten minutes and the next person pulls to the left lane without having a look into the mirrors. Or can’t drive straight and on the right lane like they’re supposed to do. And I don’t think it does anything to lecture those middle-lane hoggers. In my experience they’re mostly way past learning anything.
Yeah, it’s illegal here in Germany.
Maybe by a strict reading of the rules, but it would certainly be hard to prove that one loop around someone would be illegal. There’s plenty of legitimate reasons to pull in and slow down after travelling at speeds, even if you’ve just overtaken someone.
And it’s dangerous.
I challenge you to explain how this is more dangerous than slowly overtaking someone at nearly the same speed.
Driving is inherently dangerous. Overtaking someone is dangerous. It’s all about the relative significance of the risk - what I’m proposing is not a significant risk in any way, especially when the maneuvers are executed properly and with care, per driver training. Specifically, you pull ahead well in front of them, move over in two moves, then don’t slow down until you’re in the inside lane (and slow down gently with inidication via the brake lights).
I don’t participate in that behaviour. I can’t be angry at the world the whole time.
I’ve only ever done the loop thing when I’m driving in a very relaxed way, like I say it costs me money in excess fuel through accelerating up again. Even without the money thing, it’s the inefficiency of the move that bothers me.
At the same time, living in a country where this is an exasperating problem, it’s nice to be able to communicate with people and have them realise they’re causing a problem. Most drivers I see carry on sat in the middle lane without even realising - at least, until you make a loop, then they quickly realise and pull in. Even pulling into the inside lane and driving away in front of them causes no reaction 98/100 times.
In my experience they’re mostly way past learning anything.
I think this is skewed by your experiences driving in Germany. The standard of driving there is so much better than many other countries, particularly the UK which I’m referencing. When I’ve driven in Germany, the only real issues I’ve had have been around rush hour, the rest of the time people aren’t even in the way to begin with (or they’re driving faster than me).
Frankly, I think driving licenses should be subject to mandatory re-training every 5 years. Not like a pass/fail test, but a compulsory course. That way, changes in roadcraft can be taught, and bad habits can hopefully be addressed before they fester.
Maybe by a strict reading of the rules, but it would certainly be hard to prove that one loop around someone would be illegal. There’s plenty of legitimate reasons to pull in and slow down after travelling at speeds, even if you’ve just overtaken someone.
StVO § 3 Absatz 2 says you’re not allowed to drive slower than necessary if it impedes traffic.
StVO § 4 Absatz 1 says you’re not allowed to thwart (is that the right word?) someone unless you’re forced to do. (And you got to keep your distance.)
It’s an immediate 20€ fine, or 30€ if it caused an accident. (Bußgeldkatalog: “Tatbestand: Sie bremsten als Vorausfahrender ab, ohne dass dafür ein Grund bestand. Es kam zu einer Gefährdung des nachfolgenden Verkehrsteilnehmers.” – Fine: 20€, caused an accident: 30€)
Next step after the 20€ fine is they treat it as coercion and that’s not a fun accusation any more.
You’re right. The police rarely is around if you need them. And things like that happen every day. And nothing will happen in 99 point something percent this happens. And it’s difficult to prove. But they will prosecute people for that, on the occasion that they become aware and have the time to deal with that.
I challenge you to explain how this is more dangerous than […]
a) You needlessly get less distance between the both of you. Now there isn’t enough space to respond to other things without crashing into you or doing dangerous maneuvers. b) The other driver could drive shittily because of a reason. Maybe they can’t drive. Or are 95 years old. Or are playing with their phone or paying attention to their GPS and that’s why they’re hogging the middle lane and doing stupid stuff. They’ll crash into you because they literally won’t see you in front of them. Or they look up from their phone, catch sight in the last second, get startled and start swerving around. This has happened and happens from time to time. c) You do this to a truck/lorry and the emergency brake system will get activated. Spilling the driver’s coffee and causing yet more trouble for the traffic behind them.
You don’t want to be the cause for an accident on the motorway (or anywhere). And if you do that in traffic, you’re going to annoy a few ten thousans of people who are now going to be late at work or waste their time.
And I don’t think you should compare risks without also talking about the circumstances. Overtaking is a necessary maneuver. Brake-checking someone isn’t. Even if it were the same amount of risk. It could be avoided and generally, risk should be minimized. (And overtaking someone is not allowed unless you drive significantly faster than them. So that scenario would be illegal, too. (StVO §5 (2)))
I’ve only ever done the loop thing when I’m driving in a very relaxed way, […] it’s the inefficiency of the move that bothers me.
That’s also what bothers me. You either are in a hurry and want to drive fast. Or you have all the time to lecture people and do loops. I’m always fascinated by people who combine both. They want everyone out of their way, but then suddenly muster up lots of time to do things like that. I usually honk at people or flash the lights and then I put ‘the pedal to the metal’ and get on with my day.
If it helps, there may be some merit to this. But that hasn’t been what I’ve experienced. People will just get annoyed and either defiance kicks in and they shut down, or their belief that they’re right and everyone else is wrong solidifies even more. And most people don’t respond well to tit for tat, anyways. (Slowing them down after they slowed you down.) Honking at them is in my oppinion a better way to make them aware. (This of course has limitations, too. I’ve seen people drive without lights at night, flashed my lights at them for like a minutes straight. And they either didn’t notice or thought I’m the idiot. I had to pull up next to them at the next traffic light and tell them… Some drivers are just weird…)
I think this is skewed by your experiences driving in Germany. The standard of driving there is so much better than many other countries, particularly the UK
Yeah. I believe so, too. I’ve yet to visit the UK. Somehow I never got around to do so. Germany regularly gets praised for it’s standard of driving. And our perspective and what kind of things we have to deal with is probably very different. However, I think the percentage of idiots in the population should be around the same. And I’m basing a good amount of what I’m saying on rush hour, because sadly that’s often when you have to commute or get somewhere. And I live in the city, so that’s another thing. I usually take the train, so I’m dealing with other issues on a daily basis.
Frankly, I think driving licenses should be subject to mandatory re-training every 5 years. Not like a pass/fail test, but a compulsory course.
That would upset many people and be very unpopular in politics. But I think it’d be a good idea. And everyone would benefit from a safer environment. They could also force people to do a first-aid course every now and then. I’ve witnessed 2 bicycle accidents this year and for some people the last time they heard about first-aid was 30 years ago when they got their drivers license. Just my oppinion.
[Edit: Sorry you get down-voted so much. Maybe I don’t agree with some things. But I don’t find it offensive or outrageous what you’re saying. Just be careful on the street and do things with sanity and reason.]
StVO § 3 Absatz 2 says you’re not allowed to drive slower than necessary if it impedes traffic.
Traffic isn’t being impeded, you’re slowing down in an empty lane.
StVO § 4 Absatz 1 says you’re not allowed to thwart (is that the right word?) someone unless you’re forced to do. (And you got to keep your distance.)
Safe distance is being maintained, you’re slowing down in an empty lane.
Also, as I said before, you could have plenty of other reasons to pull into the inside lane and slow down after overtaking someone, letting them pass you in the middle lane. So one loop has plausible deniability, though 2 or more would be pretty obvious. Still, I feel like most police officers would just give you a talking to, rather than a ticket, they’d laugh and tell you not to do it again - if they’re even around to stop you.
They’ll crash into you because they literally won’t see you in front of them.
I’m not sure you fully understand the manuever:
- Overtake the middle lane driver in the outside lane, get a full 2-4 seconds in front of them.
- Move to the middle lane, maintaining distance in front.
- Move to the inside lane, with them still in the middle lane.
- Slow down gently, showing the brake lights and monitoring the car in the middle lane.
It’s not brake checking them, you’re in a completely separate lane. They have no reason or need to slow down. If I saw them on their phone when I first overtook them I probably would think of them as hazardous and just leave them alone, continuing on my way.
Generally I don’t get angry on the road. Like you, most of the time I’ll just flash my lights (I’d only honk if they did something particularly dangerous), wait until they’re out of the way then drive on. The loop thing is more of a bit of fun, and like I say in my experience most drivers realise it and pull in. I think in Germany there are far fewer drivers sat in the middle lane, and the ones that do are maybe more stubborn. In the UK so many people do it that a good portion of them are reasonable, just not properly trained/they have bad habits.
I actually learned the trick when I was kayaking at uni, it was one of their games for long journies. Another was stopping at a red light and shouting “ALL CHANGE” then everyone would get out of the car and change seats. It’s a bit naughty, there is some small risk, but generally it’s just a bit of fun. You can only listen to Venga Boys so much before you get bored.
However, I think the percentage of idiots in the population should be around the same.
Most likely.
And I’m basing a good amount of what I’m saying on rush hour, because sadly that’s often when you have to commute or get somewhere.
The thing with rush hour is you probably wouldn’t get the opportunity to loop around them. You need a good deal of clear space on the road to be able to complete the move, with one car sat in the middle lane and nothing in the inside lane for a long way. It basically has to be just the 2 of you for a few hundred metres.
They could also force people to do a first-aid course every now and then.
First aid would be good also. I’ve had some first aid training, and very soon after had the opportunity to use it - an old guy at a pub missed the bench and fell and hit his head. Everyone else was panicked, I got up, told someone to call an ambulance and managed to wake him by shouting his name, then his eyes sprung open. Sure, it’s nothing like fitting a tourniquet, but it was a funky experience, then when the paramedics came I faded into the background and got back to my pint. In general, more training is a good thing. In fact, coming back to driving, I’m aware that I’ve developed some bad habits (skills degrade with age) and this would be mitigated by ongoing training.
No need to apologise though, I can tell you’re being very well reasoned. Also, downvotes don’t really have any consequence (not like on reddit, where your comment would get hidden and you might get rate limited). It’s been good chatting with you.
