It’s a tough needle to thread, because there is both a lot of antisemitism and a lot of opposition to genocide that is not motivated by antisemitism. Any support for Palestinians is joined by a chorus of calls to end the existence of Israel entirely, something that would require killing a lot of Jewish people. So it’s difficult to untangle the legitimate criticism from the antisemitism.
So I don’t disagree with you, but I also understand why people are quick to slap labels on critics.
Israel is not “Jewish people”. Israel “could” end without a single Jew dying. Also, Jews lived there when it was Palestine. I dunno did they die when it became Israel? How are you arriving at the end of a concept being mass murder?
I think if Israel stopped trying to run itself as an ethnostate they’d be fine. I think there’s an argument that the “concept” of what currently constitutes Israel may be too tainted to realistically save. Many unwilling to admit fault, apologize, and return what was stolen. And many unwilling to forgive them for doing it. It would take real concession and change. Something those in charge don’t want. So the people both Israeli and Palestinian will continue to suffer for the gains of wealthy genocidal bigots.
Many Palestinians were killed or died in the transition when Israel was established.
I agree with you that Israel needs to change, and that they aren’t going to change unless they are forced to change. But the Jewish people living in Israel will not leave peacefully. To “end” Israel is to kill a lot of Jewish people living there.
And the antisemites are counting on everyone making a distinction between the two.
There’s no scenario, in any possible world, in which the ‘abolition’ of Israel doesn’t result in the deaths of millions of Jews.
There is a difference between possible and likely. And you my friend are misrepresenting the two. It is 100% possible. But it also is unlikely because of all the genocidal ethno statists.
there are many worlds where the abolition of Israel wouldn’t result in the deaths of Jewish people, unless you swallow the fascist dichotomy of “Israel is the only safe place for Jews” and “Israel is inherently in danger, due to group X”
Israel “could” end without a single Jew dying
The history of this region proves this to not be the case though. Jews have mostly been chased out of the region a few times with many dead left in the wake.
Jews did not live peacefully before the British mandate ended, there’s a long list of pogroms and assaults leading to many dead in the hundreds of years leading up to the UN establishment of the state.
It would be great if they could live peacefully but history shows that’s a risk they can’t take.
Fuck that. Anti Zionism isn’t antisemitism. Israel is a fascist state with no right to exist. Anyone who associates that fascist state to Jewishness is the true antisemite
I would guess : ones that disposess the inhabitants for their own gain and then corral the remainders in open air prisons while stripping them of their rights of self determination. Any other state like that would be highly suspect. I think if Russia annexed Ukraine and then walled them in and controlled their electricity, food and everyday freedom, then that would count. All that said, while I think the state of Israel should never have been created in the first place, I absolutely do not agree on the idea of removing the existing state. That would be to visit upon the people of Israel the same horror they visited on the Palestinians. You can’t deplore Israel’s genocidal behavior then wish the same for them
Eight in ten British Jews consider themselves to be a Zionist. Only six percent do not.
Anti Zionism isn’t antisemitism. Israel is a fascist state with no right to exist.
This is antisemitism on two counts.
- The reason is because you are singling out the only Jewish state as being uniquely lacking legitimacy as a state, and therefore Jews as the only people on this planet who don’t have the right of self-determination. Antizionism would be to call for the destruction of Israel, which is also antisemitic.
- Comparing the only Jewish state to the very regime which murdered more than 6,000,000 Jews is an antisemitic comparison and designed to hurt Jews.
by your logic, disagreeing with any form of theocracy/ethnostate is hate towards the religious/ethnic groups also, previously being the victims don’t change the ability to be the perpetrator later on.
but it’s good to know that anti-Nazi was just racism against Germans, and that historically victimized groups have cart blanch to commit genocide (please ignore the whole justification the Nazis had where they perceived themselves as some form of victims)
It’s a tough needle to thread
It really isn’t as long as both parties are arguing in good faith and refraining from strawman arguments or other logical fallacies.
Sadly, even that is usually too much to ask for, as evidenced by your apparently good faith post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy of assuming that you can’t argue that genocide of Palestinians is a bad thing without people agreeing with you by arguing that genocide of Israeli people would be super neat.
Of course, claiming that what other people say apart from agreeing with you that Palestinians shouldn’t be murdered is the responsibility of you for some reason is in itself an association fallacy.
Come to think of it, ARE you arguing in good faith or are you just taking this chance to apply guilt by association without appearing to? 🤔
Anyway: NO it’s NOT difficult to defend Palestinians without being antisemitic and benignly doing so does NOT make you responsible for antisemites agreeing with what you’re saying and then adding a lot that you did NOT say.
It really isn’t as long as both parties are arguing in good faith and refraining from strawman arguments or other logical fallacies.
How would you know? That’s really my point. Antisemites are using this moment to inject their bigotey into the political discussion.
Come to think of it, ARE you arguing in good faith or are you just taking this chance to apply guilt by association without appearing to? 🤔
Case in point. I’ve called what Israel has been foing a genocide from the beginning. I think Netanyahu has committed crimes against humanity and should be deposed.
I also think Israel has a right to defend itself from Hamas, and a right to prosecute and root out terrorists.
For this, I have been called a bigot from both sides. And I completely understand, because you don’t know if I’m a secret bigot trying to sound reasonable.
I’m not at all suggesting that it makes me responsible for the statements of bigots, nor am I suggesting that anyone else should feel guilty by association as ling as they are challenging the bigotry. If you march shoulder to shoulder with them then yes you are guilty by association. If you tap into their hatred to achieve your political goals, however benign your goals are, you are guilty by association.
And that’s the hard part. I’m not suggesting it’s hard not to be a bigot. It’s hard to tell who is who from the sidelines.
If you see a beaten up homeless person in the street and they keep screaming something about “I’m gonna take over the united States government”, the threat is basically idle and has to be taken in the context of what power he has, as a homeless perspn, as compared to a state like the US. Israel has all the power and is in no kind of substantial danger from Hamas or anyone else. It can erradiacte the entire place easily. Palestine is the homeless person screaming how he wants to replace biden while in fact he is beaten to the ground and survives on scrapes of food.
Hamas has fired more than 12,000 rockets at Israel since October 7th and continues to fire hundreds more every day. The only reason they haven’t killed more people is because Israel has invested in the Iron Dome air defense system.
You’re also forgetting that on October 7th they raped and slaughtered and burned their way through every Jew they could get their hands on, men, women and children, killing more than 1,300 in the process. The only reason they didn’t carry on their slaughter was because the ‘evil’ IDF stopped them.
The ability to defend is part of the power we are speaking of though. That’s like saying Israel doesn’t have power because if it didn’t have power it wouldn’t have power. The point stands that because of this ability of defense and superior security, Hamas doesn’t do much damage. The same cannot be said of the other side. We are not arguing about Hamas being evil or not, we are arguing about how much damage can they make given the power of Israel. The threat is not existential bu any means.
I’ll be sure not to concern myself with the rockets Hamas continues to fire at Israeli neighborhoods because those people shouldn’t be concerned given the power imbalance is so stark. I’m confident they’ll understand.
I don’t disagree with you that Israel has far more power and ability to influence things than anyone in Palestine does, but it’s disingenuous to portray Hamas as a harmless homeless person ranting about the government when they are often causing injury and sometimes death to people who certainly weren’t within earshot to hear the ranting in the first place.
I don’t have an answer for this situation, but Israel has an obligation to protect their citizens. That shouldn’t come at the expense of innocent Palestinian civilians, though. Everything about this conflict sucks, because there’s absolutely no good actors involved.
I never said Hamas is harmless. I merely said that the extent of their harm is so limited. It took a security nightmare for Hamas to actually do any harm, and this was taken as such a huge unexpected tragedy. Don’t get me wrong, it is a tragedy but no one is surprised that Israel can push a few bottons and kill thousands of Palestinians so easily. Israel can do in a single day what Hamas would plan for months, or even years. All of this and Israel is good at weaponizing these idle threats of “exterminating Israel”. The rockets that Hamas launches barely scratch few people here and there, but it’s always so unexpected that you hear about 1 Isreaeli that died while 200 Palestinians is just a routine occurrence. It’s a tragedy on both sides as you say, but it is not on the same level.
Here is a thought. Set a 60 second timer, see how fast you can reach a shelter within that timer. Now imagine that at the end of the timer rockets may or may not strike your home or your family’s home. Are okay with that? Remember that 60 second timer can go off at any moment, including your commute to work.
That’s what you’re calling an “idle threat” that Israelis are presented with constantly.
Read the comment that I’m replying to. The idea that there’s a threat to the state of Israel in its entirety is a fantasy. It’s basically used to have Israel do anything with immunity. Israel can eradicate the region if it wants to, Hamas does few harms here and there. Israel kills thousands and thousands and Hamas takes years to do any damage and it gets talked about forever. You talk about 60 second timers and shelters, Palestinians have no timers and no shelters just people and children dying left and right. There’s certainty antisemitism on that side but there are also some anti Arabic sentiments. Haven’t you seen the Israelis that shout “the only good Arab is a dead Arab” and how they are gonna murder every single Arab they can find? There are videos of this way before any Hamas attacks.
Nearly thought you were intelligently giving a point of view of the Palestinian civilians currently under fire from their fascist neighbors.
That was a close one huh
Remember that 60 second timer can go off at any moment, including your commute to work.
That’s more warning than Americans get when some rando decides to shoot up a shopping mall…or a school…or a sports stadium…or the highway on the commute to work. As if no one else in the world is subject to that kind of threat…
It’s not difficult at all. One is criticising government policies and extremists while the other is just bigotry using criticism of an entire people for their government policies and extremists.
