Berlin says EU should prepare for war by end of decade(www.euractiv.com)

posted 11 months ago

Rapidcreek@lemmy.world

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digeridoo@lemmy.ml

28 points

11 months ago

That’s bullshit and a cop-out. Every country in NATO joined willingly because every country should have some level of self-determination. NATO grew because decade after decade, the Russian government proved that they act in bad faith in nearly every interaction with the international community.

Maybe if Russia acted in good faith and was willing to be a partner in the region, neighboring countries wouldn’t have felt the need to join NATO, but here we are.

Pacifism doesn’t work. We’ve seen it time and time again that it just buys our adversaries time, and we end up where we’re at today.

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raspberriesareyummy@lemmy.world

-5 points

11 months ago

It is sad how many upvotes a warmonger like you can get. You pick an arbitrary point in time and look at the state of things then and pretend the lead-up didn’t happen. That’s either propaganda, or an insane lack of functional brain cells.

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el_bhm@lemm.ee

-1 points

11 months ago

Russia was at war in almost every decade of every century.

Anyone with access to a library can confirm it.

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Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works

1 point

11 months ago

Concerning NATO expansion, I’ve got an entertaining link for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVmmASrAL-Q&t=1020

Or at 17:00 if the direct link doesn’t work

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raspberriesareyummy@lemmy.world

1 point

9 months ago

I had your message marked as unread in my inbox so that I’d eventually watch the video you recommended, but now that I got around to it, I have to say I turned it off after a bit over 2 minutes because - speaking as a non native speaker - the narrator has an insanely annoying slur / mumbling in his voice. How can a native speaker possibly be so bad at English? :(

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Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works

1 point

9 months ago

I guess you’re right. His pronounciation isn’t very clear. The tl;dw is, and I don’t claim it to be all encompassing, watch the video if you really want to know what was said, that Poland and Hungary not only weren’t ‘annexed’ into NATO, not only asked nicely to join, but actively bribed and forced their way into NATO. Bill Clinton and Boris Yeltsin made a horse-trade, where Poland and Hungary joining NATO was scheduled to happen after elections in Russia, but before US elections, so that both can win their reelection. The ascension of Poland and Hungary was clearly communicated and signed off between both head of states. The issue lies with the rest of both countries. Other politicians, on both sides, stirred more hostility. When Bush and Putin took over, the relationship between both coutries deteriorated even further. Bush’s unilateral push to get Georgia and Ukraine into NATO is, according to the video, the reason why Putin invaded Georgia. However after Bush, Obama took over and made it NATO policy that a country must have full control over its land, excluding Georgia for being partially occupied and Ukraine for having singed a lease on the Sevastapol naval base with the Russians, on top of the majority of Ukrainians at the time being against joing NATO. Obama has mellowed his tone significantly towards Russia compared to Bush. Only with the Euromaidan happening did Russia decide that, actually, Ukrainians are nazis and NATO is encroaching our borders and we need to defend ourselves. NATO enlargement isn’t ‘the US broke all agreements and is pushing for encirclement’, but different presidents having different goals. Clinton wanted to be reelected and Poland threatened to mobilize voters with polish roots for the Republicans. Bush was a warmonger that wanted to steamroll everyone, including Russia. Obama was looking to ease tensions and make alliances. The issue with Ukraine is separate from those presidents however. It was triggered by Putin getting spooked by popular uprisings.

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raspberriesareyummy@lemmy.world

1 point

9 months ago

Well - I don’t dispute that the then-administrations of Poland and Hungary invited NATO. But nevertheless, NATO as never a pacifistic alliance, they were always aiming at somehow outmaneuvering first the USSR and then Russia. There was a chance for an extended peace under Gorbachev, which NATO ruined by screwing over their gentleman’s agreement over “no eastward expansion” among other things. After Gorbachev (and the drunkard Yeltsin), Russia elected a “strongman” who decided to be just as much of an asshole as NATO, so there’s no real innocent’s in this scenario EXCEPT for the people and country of Ukraine, who really are not at fault at all, but get mass-murdered.

So now we’re stuck with NATO, despite me personally despising the NATO doctrine and having wanted to smack Stoltenberg’s teeth in countless of times. But it’s the lesser evil, not because they became more peaceful, but because Russia became more evil.

In summary: It may not be entirely NATOs fault that it has come to this, but the NATO member countries had a chance to avoid this about 30 years ago, and they blew it.

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