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1 point

Basically they don’t want NATO right on their doorstep.

NATO is not the anti-Russia club. They’re a defensive pact. Why would you be concerned about your neighbours agreeing to defend each other? Like a neighbourhood watch, perhaps. Maybe you’d be upset if you’re planning to do the thing they’re defending against. Which is all the more reason for those neighbours to band together.

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18 points

NATO was founded pretty much explicitly as the anti-USSR club. And it doesn’t even matter what it factually is - it’s what Russia perceives it as. See their final ultimatum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin’s_December_2021_ultimatum

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-8 points

That’s how Putin claims to perceive it, but that’s also what he would claim if his actual goal was to control his neighbours by force. And don’t forget Finland and Sweden responded to the invasion of Ukraine by joining NATO. If Russia perceived NATO as a threat, then Finland joining would make them more likely to be attacked. Clearly Finland feels NATO is making them safer or they wouldn’t have joined. And since then, Russia has moved tons of their military away from NATO borders and into Ukraine.

In other words, I trust the actions of Finland and Russia more than I trust the words of Russia.

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4 points

Yes, it couldn’t have gone better if NATO planned this all along.

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7 points

Wait until you hear what that defensive pact did in Yugoslavia and Libya

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-2 points

You know, you have a point. But I’ll note both instances had the UN request NATO intervention. Russia could have blocked either with their veto in the UN Security Council, but they didn’t.

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4 points

I mean, no, the UN security council doesn’t have any power, they would have still gone through with the invasion.

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8 points

Unironically believing NATO is a defensive pact.

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10 points
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Yugoslavia would levy a disagreement about NATO’s status as a “defensive pact”; as would every Nazi who’s historically headed that “dEfEnSiVe AlLiAnCe”. They’re just bodies on tap for the Five-Eyed Empire. As offensive as they’re needed, at that.

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