I’m all set up for the down votes, but in my experience as a non-trans individual, there are two common components to being trans. There is the masculine/feminine side of things, aka gender, which I find to be incredibly stupid because it’s a cultural construct that is largely self imposed in the adult world as long as you don’t have hair thick skin. I really want to do away with gender and gender roles entirely so no one is in a box and everyone can do what they want regardless of what they identify as.
Then there is the body dysmophia side of things, where you physically do not feel comfortable with the way your body presents. This I totally understand, despite not suffering from it, and is imo the only legit reason to transition.
If anyone wants to teach me anything about this, feel free to leave a civil comment and we can have a discussion.
Check out the Gender Dysphoria Bible online; it’s a very good resource. Or read the WPATH-8 recommendations if you want the actual scientific/medical consensus.
In my experience as a trans person with gnc tendencies, you cannot simply wish away gender for everybody. There are people who don’t really feel any attachment (“agender” people). But most people do, deeply.
As an aside, starting a conversation by gatekeeping how people in a group you don’t belong to are allowed to feel, then gatekeeping how they are allowed to express themselves, is generally not a way to get them to open up to you.
The equivalent for me might be “as a white person, in my opinion there are only two valid reasons for a black person to have their hair in locks (a and b), any black people who want to respectfully explain anything about that to me are free to do so…”
If I open the conversation like that, I’m not likely to gather much new information.
I think that may be why you’re not getting the polite interactions you’re looking for, your post was not particularly friendly.
That’s fair, I need to take more care for how I phrase things. I appreciate the resource, but I’ve found that I don’t learn as well from textbook esque resources than I do from having conversations. I’m very confident that I am agender, so I suppose my experiences are reflected in my beliefs. But it seems very odd to me that more people within the LGBT community don’t agree with my line of reasoning, as it’s a more freedom based approach to the same goal of liberation from gender roles.
As far as the gatekeeping goes, I explained why I phrased it that way in another comment, but I do agree it was a poor choice.
And so far no one has actually attacked me, so I consider these discussions to be fairly successful, although I wish people wouldn’t downvote that other user as that stifles their point of view.
That’s the issue I have generally - is the automatic assumption people take that I am attacking them rather than trying to have a conversation so that I can educate myself on the topic and understand better.
I’m afab, but don’t feel like a woman. I recently immigrated to a country with a gendered language, and it feels almost like faking an accent to use feminine words to refer to myself- like I’m clearly misleading people, but in a mostly harmless way. I’m not sure if I’ll ever transition, but if I do, it won’t be because of me hating being inside my body, it will be because it feels more honest to those around me and I kinda feel like a scumbag “deceiving” them constantly.
I don’t really know much about trans theory, so I don’t know if there’s a good argument to convince you, but I think mine is a good reason to transition.
Afab? And yeah that’s kinda my point, I want to do away with gendered language because it seems kinda pointless. And can you explain more about what you mean by deceiving people?
Assigned female at birth-in my case it means I’ve been treated like a woman my whole life and have a female body.
In a utopian world, there might not be gendered language (and the women I’ve talked to about it here mostly feel empowerment by it, so who knows), but I don’t live in that world. I don’t think it’s fair to put the burden of ending sexism on trans people before we transition (not that you were, but some do). Trans people are a pretty small part of the population and we’re having a tough enough time getting people to allow us to legally transition, we can’t change the culture ourselves, so we have to exist in a gendered culture (I also think it’s dumb, but I can’t make much of a difference there. As a basically still closeted trans person, I’m probably doing a lot to go against traditional gender roles though, on second thought).
It feels like when I introduce myself as a woman (or in this language use any adjective or noun to describe myself), it doesn’t feel true to me. I don’t know why (and I’m not planning on making any significant changes until I do), but it just feels like I’m hiding something when I suggest that I’m a woman.
I know that’s nebulous, but so is identity. I know women well: I have sisters and plenty of female friends and I’ve dated women. I don’t think I fit the model for how women relate to the world. I feel like my perspective is much closer to that of the men I know.
Weirdly, other people also don’t treat me completely like a woman either. No one’s ever spoken over me in a meeting (though I’ve occasionally seen it happen to other women in these meetings), I’m given heavy things to carry, and my bosses have mostly given me decision making power pretty early on. I have experienced sexism (and certainly the kind of sexual harassment that comes from existing in a city), but less so than other women seem to. I’m pretty tall and well spoken, but slim and baby-faced, so I don’t know how much can be attributed to my appearance.
Assigned Female At Birth
Basically, what did the doctors guess your gender was going to be based on your genitals.
and is imo the only legit reason to transition.
That’s actually a pretty contentious topic in trans circles (transmedicalism/truscum). Personally I don’t really see the issue with transitioning for whatever (well-informed) reason, as long as you’re not taking up resources for those with dysmorphia
which I find to be incredibly stupid because it’s a cultural construct that is largely self imposed
Oh please explain this more. We need your cis gender expertise to explain how gender doesn’t matter
and is imo the only legit reason to transition.
Wtf. First, why else would someone transition? And even so, who are you to gatekeep what reasons are legit?
By simply mocking the person for saying gender roles are stupid, the naive conclusion is that you are for gender roles.
If there’s nuance there, it’d be great for you to tease that out, otherwise it just looks like you’re for gender roles, or gatekeeping the topic.
By simply mocking the person for saying gender roles are stupid, the naive conclusion is that you are for gender roles.
Maybe the VERY naive conclusion by someone who isn’t interested in any nuance at all. Because I didn’t quote anything related to gender roles. I mocked him for his comment suggesting that gender itself is a construct. Which is patronizing as fuck by someone who feels comfortable in their gender
Many trans people (me included) strongly identify with a gender.
If we didn’t strongly identify with a gender, why on earth would we put ourselves through this lengthy, expensive, socially punishing, and often painful transition process? The joy of living as yourself (which, for many of us, includes gender expression) makes it worthwhile.
Gender roles, like “men are doctors, women are nurses?” Very often, those are fucking bullshit.
Wanting to be recognized as a man/woman, and valuing that, does not imply being on board with sexism.
As for the first part, I feel like I explained it fairly well. Literally just do what you want. It’s the equivalent of saying “I’m nerdy, so I can only do nerdy things.”
As for the second part, yeah I mean I shouldn’t be gatekeeping but I phrased it that way to show that I do understand that reason.
With that being said, I posted that with the hope of learning, and while your comment feels a little aggressive, I appreciate that you stayed civil. Can you explain why my understanding of gender does not work?
Can you explain why my understanding of gender does not work?
Because it’s mostly coming from a place that you simply can’t understand. Gender isn’t just a social construct. Gender roles are, but telling trans people that “hey gender doesn’t matter, just do what you want” is extremely patronizing coming from someone who feels comfortable in their gender.
And even if gender was a social construct, we live in a society. And part of being a particular gender is how people in society treat you. Seeing cis women treated one way, and then being treated another can be dysphoric as fuck, even when the difference is sexist as fuck and obviously just a social differentiation. In the end, you’re right, most of the differences in how the different genders are created are due to society, but that doesn’t make them any less part of living as a particular gender.