I’ll take this in good faith, so let’s rationally look at the situation.
Option 1: Biden - havent heard one person yet say Joe is perfect the way they do for Option 2. If you were to honestly look at what he’s done or is attempting to get done, there’s gotta be a few things you’d aprrove of on the list. Here’s a quick list from Politico, which is mostly non-biased and credible.
Option 2: Trump - the other frontrunner. If you think anyone other than Biden or Trump has a chance of winning the popular or EC vote, more power to you. While we definetly have some significant issues with Biden, an attempted coup, at least 1 attempted rape, abusing the office of President for profit, idolizing dictators and saying it would be fun to be one, and overturning womens’ right to choose to have children only fall on the list for 1 of the 2 candidates.
Option 3: Third Party - there is something to say for voting your principles. Some would also say there is something foolish is throwing away a well telegraphed opportunity to avoid disaster. Even if you hate both candidates, I’m sad to say barring unforeseen circumstances (and to be fair, we do have people publicly advocating taking out political enemies…) you’re likely going to end up with one of the 2 of them. If you have a key issue to you, such as the Gaza conflict, you are taking a much greater gamble on what the outcome will be. Yes, Biden is protecting one of our country’s alliances at the cost of human life. Again, I haven’t seen anyone not a nationalist agrue that. Do you feel Trump will help Gaza? Unless he’s got immediate family there or a way to profit off it, I’m going to say no.
Option 4: Don’t vote - Can’t think of any pros to this choice. You’re still getting Biden or Trump and you haven’t even done the bare minimum to accomplish anything. Neither party is hurt by your inaction.
If I’m missing any other options, please fill me in. Other than voting in primaries, there aren’t any times I can think of where I was very enthused to vote for anyone, because they’re people, not gods. They’re all flawed. They’re all going to make bad choices and do things that I dont like. Again, can you name me one president out of all of them that didnt do some really bad stuff?
You can bemoan the Electoral College or the First Past the Post system, or whatever you want, but that is the system we are in and what choices we actually have. That’s what makes so many of these posts and comments bad. Point me to anywhere on Lemmy, Reddit, or anywhere where someone has a better plan that can win this November.
So far the best we have, no matter how you want to phrase it, amounts to “get over yourself, and just vote.”
Option 4: Don’t vote - Can’t think of any pros to this choice. You’re still getting Biden or Trump and you haven’t even done the bare minimum to accomplish anything. Neither party is hurt by your inaction.
I’d disagree with this slightly. You’re benefitting the minority party by not voting (and voting 3rd party for that matter) in a first past the post system. Currently in the US that would be the Republican party. Not voting does not mean you aren’t having an effect. If you don’t vote in November you’re mathematically benefitting the GOP candidate regardless. If you’re eligible to vote, there is no “sitting out” option.
I agree this option really isnt an option for anyone that cares about how our country is governed. If this is a valid choice to anyone, I’d probably question why they’re on a political forum if they don’t care about politics.
I think it would have been more constructive of us to discuss which party is actually the majority party instead of some Hillary quip from Fallon. I don’t want to believe the polls saying Trump is favored over Biden at this point because I dont want to believe so many people actually support a single thing that guy says. This is by far the easiest election decision of my lifetime.
Discussing how we can improve polls or ensure we get better candidates is what I’d like to see a Lemmy community be about, not heckling some former politician on a late night show about things we can’t do much about now.
I think its pretty evident that the majority of Americans support Democratic party policy vs the GOP. The GOP has power not because they’ve won fair democratic elections, but because they’ve gerrymandered districts and passed anti voting policies. If you run fair elections where every eligible voter has the opportunity to vote the Democrats win in a landslide most of the time.
Discussing how we boost turnout/engagement and getting more involved in the primaries is what I think we need to focus on, I think we agree there.
I never understood the argument that voting third party is “throwing away your vote”. A democracy is supposed to be a system in which everyone can vote for the path that aligns the most with their own values. If that is a third party, you should vote for that. Saying that you shouldn’t because “they probably won’t win and we need to defend democracy!” Is just goofy and bizarre to me. If that’s the system we’re in, there’s no defending democracy - it’s already dead.
I’m voting third party because that’s what best represents my interests. If one of the other major parties wants my vote, they can represent my interests better. That’s all there is to it. I don’t feel bad in the slightest.
I don’t like that it works that way, and I support your reasons for doing so. If we’re talking about the primaries especially. I know where I am, we haven’t had ours yet, but the country seems to have already solidified our choices for November.
If you’re talking about voting third party this November, the reason I can’t back that is that if someone can’t come close to getting enough votes to win (what’s the most vote % a recent third party has gotten in a presidential election?), then why not vote for your second choice that may win? It’s ranked choice voting in a way.
If you vote for someone knowing they will lose, you’ve maintained your principles, but is the outcome much different than if you sat out voting? By voting your second choice, you’ve still made what influence you can have be felt. It just seems more constructive that way.
Again, I really don’t like this is where we’re at, but it is. But one of these 2 old dudes doesn’t belong anywhere near any elected office, and I’m gonna do all I can to keep him out of it.
I’m glad we seem to be able to discuss this though. I feel many of these topics are published to stir crap up and they are not constructive, but we don’t need to let ourselves be sucked into it and fight each other. Thank you for being polite.
Yes. There is a massive difference between voting third party knowing you will lose and not voting at all. One casts your democratic vote and sets a record of what policies the country wants - one says nothing.
The country can have my vote. It can know where I stand, and I hope all progressives make it know where they stand. I won’t bend over to two party fascism because it already won, and I won’t have on my conscience voting for a person who poured 30 billion dollars into vastly increasing the police state, and who for months facilitated the killings of thousands abroad.
I’m glad you are taking that person in good faith, but I’d like to just quickly jump in and add that the electoral college does make some locations impossible to change. If you live in a deeply one-sided state like I do, you end up not really caring for the presidential election because there is nothing you can do besides dumping your entire life into campaigning for the minority candidate to improve their odds of winning by a negligible amount, albeit less negligible than voting alone. And I don’t think I could live with myself if I campaigned for biden daily 🙃.
I get that you bring up the fact that the EC and FPTP systems are shit, but voting because it’s the system we have won’t make the system suddenly work in a way that it is outside of the scope of what it is designed to do. Voting harder won’t do anything besides make the poll workers concerned.
I’ll be surprised if my state’s voting habit changes, but I think the odds of that happening is similar to getting struck by lightning when buying a winning lotto.
If you are in a swing state, voting will actually have a much more material impact. But millions don’t live in swing states.
Since I can’t impact the election in my state, I’m moreso going to the polls for the state representatives and other state/local positions, since those have a much more material impact on my life, and the lives of others. If biden wins and my state senate is full of fascists, things won’t be looking too good for anyone living in my state.
The biggest issue I have with your post is that voting isn’t the only choices we have, and the alternative option is often much more impactful albeit at a local scale. Direct action has been the backbone of every movement that has gotten results in the US. You should join some activist groups for damage control if trump wins, especially mutual aid groups. Having a network of solidarity and mutual aid will lessen the blow of giving that shitrag another 4 years, and it can be lifesaving to poc and lgbtq+ folk, as well as those who will face state repression or poverty/houselessness. Even if biden wins, it will still be invaluable to the most vulnerable people in your area. I recommend Food Not Bombs, and Heaterbloc if you live in an area that gets cold. Both orgs are found all over the US. Those groups are often a great place to find other local groups that are more specific to your locale. But even if you are unlucky and find none there still should be a local(ish) DSA chapter, as aimless as they are. Or you could start your own org!
If you want an example of people using mutual aid and solidarity to survive the hellhole of Mississippi, see “Jackson Rising” or the newer “Redux” version by Cooperation Jackson. It’s an excellent book that I can’t wait to finish.
Thank you so much for your response. This right here is so much what I wish all these communities and posts would be.
I like getting reminded of your perspective, as I am in a swing state. What you mention about the down ballot has historically been my counterpoint to people saying voting is useless because those people will absolutely have a much more immediate effect on your life then most federal issues. But after seeing the Supreme Court nominations go how they have and what they are now allowing to go on in all levels of the court system, I’m not so sold on the idea of the presidential vote being any less important.
Your comments about direct action are great too, and it’s been something I’ve been trying to learn more about. I started listening to It Could Happen Here as I’ve been commuting again and needed more from the Behind the Bastards crew and I’ve greatly enjoyed learning about Unicorn Ranch and hearing personal accounts about the southern border. Learning more about these things is what has been getting me frustrated at the Lemmy political posts as they all feel like people complaining but nobody offering any solutions. It’s important to vent, but it just either turns to insults or everyone just piling onto hating whoever. I want to see less doomer type content and more building up type things instead.
I’ll check out all the places you recommended, and keep sharing anything else like this, you seem to have a good familiarity with it. We could really use more things like this here, in my opinion. Thanks a lot!
Thanks! 🖤
If you like Behind the Bastards, you should check out Margaret Killjoy’s “Cool People who did Cool Stuff”, it’s excellent, and similar in the sense it is the opposite of the podcast. Rather than focusing on shitty people who do shitty things, it talks about its namesake. If you aren’t a big fan of what else I say, I can say with confidence that you will at least like this.
I can see your dislike and/or dissatisfaction with lemmy leftists on this, but as someone who is not exactly an advocate for electoralism I understand theirs too. To briefly explain that, many people on the far left, such as myself, do not see electoralism as a viable means of change for many reasons. But I feel that some people take it to a silly conclusion of non-voting. I get the sentiment that you will never get a mainstream candidate that supports your views. But at a local level, one that isn’t gridlocked by congress, the likelihood that your vote could be the difference between a trans person having access to gender affirming care is much higher. Even in a congressional election there could be a chance that you help a non-republican win the seat.
In general, I feel that a better take on electoralism is, it will never lead to positive change, but can lead to negative change. You can never dismantle the master’s house with his own tools, after all. But the master can still build a new oppressive structure with them. All successful movements that sought to improve the conditions of the marginalized, be it the slave revolts and the civil war, the civil rights movement, the feminist/suffragette movement, and the LGBTQ+ rights movement, can thank direct action for their victories. But if the reactionary forces have their way, mounting such a movement will be more difficult, even though having the liberals in power won’t help that much (See MLK’s letter from a birmingham jail, and various Malcom X speeches).
I do recognize and agree with the sentiment of those living in a heavily gerrymandered district, or one with voter suppression though. Like it or not, in some area there is no hope of change at even the local level (at least, there is no hope without a movement behind it).
IMHO the sentiment on the presidential vote being unimportant is somewhat accurate. I dont mean that who the current president is has no impact. I do mean that the hope of having any lasting beneficial impact is essentially nil.
In action, it seems like a ratcheting effect where each step backwards is met with little effort to fix or undo past damage. Any victories done by the last democrat is undone before the next republican is up for reelection, but it will take a full 8 years to undo the damage done by a republican over a single term. And voting harder will not change that.
I’ve previously mentioned my gripes with the EC and FPTP voting, and their impact on the presidential election, but my cynicism is furthered by my disenfranchisement with Biden. I voted for him in 2020, foolishly believing that “we can push him left” and I was ecstatic to see him walk into office after the inauguration. But I feel betrayed to a huge degree, and since then I’ve ben pulled further left as I read more about politics.
For me, his bizarre stances are a gut punch. I can half forgive him for his student loans forgiveness from being shot down, though I feel like he quit real early on it and failed to approach it from another angle. I hate his border policy, as it is continuing what trump was planning with the wall while claiming otherwise, and then he tries his best to look tough on the border, a problem that only exists for electioneering’s sake. Well, there is a problem at the border, but it isn’t what the framing of the discussion is about (See No Wall They Can Build by Crimethinc, its a wonderful free book and audiobook/podcast). His current and historic positions on crime is barbaric. Tough on crime is, for the most part, a racist dogwhistle that many people either fail to see or callously ignore when they realize that americans are having a moment and need to be reassured that crime is bad and they oppose it, even though there is no surge in crime. His active stance aiding and abetting genocide while trying to appear like he is pushing back on Israel fills me with such disgust that I could never see myself supporting him again.
I’ve heard similar thoughts quite a few times from other people on the left, notably Anark and FD Signifire, and their opinions on Obama, which are very sturdy takes IMHO.
Finally, I think that we are really seeing how the american liberal democracy will continue to operate, and how it cannot fix itself. The separation of powers is flimsier than the founding fathers intended, and power is entrenched in such a way that the levers of power cannot be pushed or pulled in another direction. It would take a lifetime of work to grease the gears enough to make the levers movable, but that’s not feasible with the climate-collapse shaped cliff we are set to drive off, unless we kick the elephant and jackass out of the car asap. Anyone who advocates a hierarchical system like this one will inevitably create the same scenario for our great-grandchildren to deal with.
This is because this is the endpoint of any hierarchic system. Any hierarchical system will attract the worst people to it, be it the fascist, or the person supporting fascism a few countries over, since attaining power requires a single victory. A single won election, legitimate or illegitimate, will result in significant damage. If you combine this with the motivations of capitalism empowering those who take the worst actions possible, a capitalist democracy does seem like the worst combination possible. No matter how secure the controls on power is, it will be misused, legally or not. Enough lawyers working for enough time will find necessary loopholes to crack things wide open, even if their theories hold as much power as unitary executive theory.
/vent
Once again, direct action is the answer. If you plan your actions with means that match your ends, and carefully consider your praxis, you can begin to make an impact. Considering the big problem stems from hierarchical power structures, you need to make your structures non-hierarchical (AKA horizontal) if you want to prevent it from suffering the flaws of hierarchy, or remaking it in the end. With a lot of hard work, you can begin to create the new in the shell of the old, a democratic system that is empowered by the people to carry out their needs, not controlled by unaccountable politicians who claim to support you.
“We live in capitalism - its power can seem inescapable. But so did the divine right of kings.”
- Ursula K Le Guin
I’m not sure if you’ve heard this take/direction of argument before, but if you haven’t, check out libertarian socialism, and its submovements. I promise it isn’t cringe like the conservative libertarians who stole our label >:( (fuck you murray rothbard, i hope your company with reagan, kissinger, and thatcher in the pits of hell is eternally uncomfortable)
Crimethinc has a good intro book “From Democracy to Freedom” that summarizes my takes, as an anarchist. It’s quite short, but even if you don’t find anarchism your cup of tea, it will certainly be an interesting read. If you find the anarchist label scary, at least give the book a try because the common conception of anarchists is inaccurate, and it usually just finds itself being an insult levied by hierarchs who don’t want to cede ground. For the most part we are just your local activists who are feeding the needy, setting up community centers, or organizing your labor unions, easing the suffering under capitalism while dreaming and acting towards a better future. And we have vegan/freegan cookies.
