The onus to sane action is on everyone. Israel is in the wrong no matter which way u cut the pie. It does not mean that ignoring whats happening north of israel is validated bc the apartheid state is acting the way it always has.

Or at least Biden to reverse course and admit supporting Israel isn’t worth the possibility of losing the election.

Liberals and moderates love to tell us about the choice in front of us between Biden and Trump. But they ignore the choice in front of them which is supporting Israel or losing the election.

Nobody said that. Absolutist BS like this leads to dogma.

Only stable option is supporting genocide? Do you hear how you are evil?

The Gaza genocide did not start on Oct 7, much like the Russian incursion on Unkraine did not start in Jan 2022.

This is very very true, and i didnt mean to imply otherwise. Ive been hating on the apartheid state in israel for a very very long time now, and as someone born in Poland, i need no reminders of the evil the russian state causes both at home and abroad. I highly appreciate the added clarity, i should have been more clear in the first place.

Both of those are tremendous blights on human rights and should be equally condemned.

Theyre both deserving of equal condemnation insofar as both are crimes against humanity, but the one is a much more slippery slope towards more genocide than i think many in the states realize. Russian imperial sentiments towards Poland, Lithuania, and Finland (of the very next in line) have been painfully clear to anyone paying attention to the past 100 years of history, and doubly so to anyone aware of “Foundations of Geopolitics.”

Im not trying to say that the death of one group is worse than anothers, but i am saying that one conflict is a direct precursor to (for the modern age) unprecedented levels of death and destruction.

I am also willing to elaborate that sucking apartheid israels proverbial dick is something the US has been doing since before most of us were born, and that bidens stance on israel is less than par for the course in that hes the first head of state to outright say things like, “maybe israel should hold new elections bc of how fucked up their treatment of Palestinians is.” Thats less than anyone wants or especially needs, but it does show represent more wavering from democratic leadership than one would expect. It also is further proof that the lemmy trolls telling u that the dems are getting more rightwing are full of it. We’re on the cusp of the reins being passed on from the old generation onto the new. I agree biden shouldnt be the choice in a sane world, but a sane world it is not, and we can hope for far more with the boomers coming out of power so long as our democracy isnt just pissed the fuck away.

Nut up and do it. I’m proud of you.

Look at what is done, not what is said.

The Nazis also proclaimed to be helping the Jews as they were putting them into Ghettos and then industrially murdering them in the Concentration Camps.

If someone gives a sandwich to me and a gun to a person actively trying to murder me, they are not “pro-me”

An alternative explanation is that what he says and what he de facto does are two entirelly different things.

Being pro-Palestinian would require demanding Israel stop murdering them.

Biden is pro-Israel but also pro-Palestinians.

Biden’s Increasingly Contradictory Israel Policy: A former State Department official explains the Administration’s sharpening public critique of Israel’s war and simultaneous refusal to “impose a single cost or consequence.”

Right now it seems like the Biden Administration is trying to pressure Israel not to launch a military assault on Rafah and to allow in more humanitarian aid. At the same time, it has shown an unwillingness to take strong steps to punish Israel or to restrict the flow of aid or weapons to Israel if the Israelis disregard that pressure. How do you understand the strategy now?

I’d call the Biden Administration’s approach “passive-aggressive.” They are angry at Netanyahu, and were even before this. He’s presiding over the most extreme government in the history of the state of Israel. That government and the preceding dozen years of Netanyahu’s tenure are undermining the two fundamental drivers of the U.S.-Israeli relationship, which are shared values and common interests. So, it’s passive-aggressive in the sense that, six months into the war, the Administration has still been unwilling—unable—to impose a single cost or consequence that you and I, as normal human beings, would describe as real pressure.

Unable or unwilling?

Both, but I’ll get to that in a second. There were three levers the Administration could’ve pulled. They’re still available. No. 1 is to end U.S. military assistance. There’s no indication the Administration’s anywhere close to that. It just approved a shipment of two-thousand-pound bombs, and twenty F-35s. No. 2, change the U.S. voting posture at the U.N., either by introducing its own Security Council resolution, or by voting for someone else’s, that is very critical of Israel. It has not done that. No. 3, abandon the whole notion of negotiating the hostage release and simply join the chorus of those in the international community who basically say, “You need to pressure Israel to cease this military campaign.”

And I think it has not done these things

Biden is pro-Getting Relected. And he recognizes that his party is increasingly pro-Palestinian. However, his current policy appears to be a CYA strategy, intended to create the illusion of neutrality while negotiating a path that allows Israel to continue its extermination of Arab people across the region.

As this exterminationist Israeli agenda becomes more undeniable, the job of appearing neutral grows more difficult. And Biden’s decision to (tacitly) back Israel at all costs means risking friendly relations with Turkyie, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt. However, he’s staying the course, precisely because he’s banking on a mass expulsion and genocide of Palestinians today will strengthen Israel’s regional position in the future.

I knew that sounded wrong and reading your word brought the correct one to mind. Fixed!

Zionism fits neatly into the view that every country should be ethically homogenous.

No they are not the same evil, and it insults the intelligence to pretend otherwise. And threatening the Dems with consequences by giving power to people who are even worse on those issues than them? That does the opposite of what you’re hoping - it encourages that kind of behaviour.

We got to where we are because the right has pulled the window further and further, step by step, for years - and we have to do the same. The system doesn’t just change overnight.

You have to understand that a win for Trump this year is a total win for the far right and a total loss for the left. Anyone pretending otherwise is hopelessly misguided or intentionally stumping for the fascists.

that sticking to ideals and voting for a non-viable candidate (or not voting at all) is somehow the best course of action.

Taking the “moral high” ground even though it would have a bad result. Sounds like what the DEMs do all the time.

“I learned it from you” -young people probably.

They know Donald will destabilize the country and accelerate a collapse. They think that will make room for China to expand.

Yeah but the problem is we live in at least a pro-fascist state if not a fascist state already. So convincing people who realize this to vote for the guy who has been voting for fascist policies for decades (as well as some progressive ones, for those who will say I’m ignoring the “good” he’s done) and is actively supporting genocide not just in policy but in his statements and apparently beliefs is going to be pretty tough. It’s not just about voting “not Trump” anymore, people also want to vote “not Biden”.

Republicans count on people like that to win.

Republicans have lost more than one Senate seat because they ran zealous nutbag losers in safe elections and pissed off moderates.

I’m not sure why Democrats get to run pro-war Zionists and Blue Lives fascists, free from the fear that they’ll suffer the same fate.

They don’t just count on it. They actively invade spaces and spread that idea. I’m almost certain the first people saying that about Biden/Israel were right wing trolls, and people on the left actually took the bait and started spreading it themselves.

The threat of making your candidate lose is the only power you have to shift them.

I mean this is also not really a threat, though. I think realistically biden and trump are both closer to each other than either of them are to this like, eclectic amalgamation of positions that is the “youth vote”. Him not winning isn’t like, still a victory, in that circumstance, but it’s not like, a loss to them in the same way that it would be if they actually had to do all the stuff the “youth vote” wanted. Basically I’m just saying that they, the DNC broadly I suppose, would rather give as little as they absolutely can, while still maintaining a delicate balance of power where they’re the only ones that can maintain the status quo rather than a backslide into total fascism. Going with all the “youth vote” positions, to them, would be as big if not a bigger loss than a slide into total fascism.

Which is to say, I think they’re willing to lose as long as it means they don’t have to really do anything major.

I’m fully committed to lesser evil voting since it’s the only viable electoral strategy. So as long as Biden is better than Trump I would vote for him. I have a hard time understanding why people don’t see that this is the most rational way to vote. If you don’t like it, and I don’t either, then you need to pursue strategies to change it, particularly outside the electoral system. Since these strategies do not conflict with voting I think it’s rational to pursue both actions.

And no I don’t think we need to be toothless. But a lot of people don’t seem to be smart enough to walk the line of threatening to withhold support without actually doing so. I’m not going to go right up to Biden and tell him that’s what I’m doing. He doesn’t know what my strategy is, so it can still be effective.

Biden said this? When?

Young people are part of the coalition but they’ve never proven to be a reliable part. When the 18-25s vote like the older generations then campaigns will start to take their needs more seriously.

Historically they have been. I think Biden seems out of touch but I’m not sure I agree with this sentiment overall. That poll sounds dubious but I mean coalitions can change certainly. Trump seems even further from the views I see most young people espousing so I’m not sure why they would move to him but maybe it’s protest vote kind of situation.

Purely hypothetical question for you: If you had a choice between supporting Israel or Biden winning the 2024 election which would you choose?

And if a frog had wings he wouldn’t bump his ass when he hopped.

We have FPTP, and we’ll have it until I’m cold and dead in the ground.

Yeah Donald “Muslim ban” and “finish the job” Trump is not pro-Palestine only for reasons of distraction.

Palestine (Russian ally through Iran)

Russia isn’t in military allience with Iran. Both Russia and Iran are neighbors sanctioned by the US, forcing them into a business partnership by exclusion.

And Iran isn’t allied with Gaza Palestinians. You’re confusing them with the Yemeni Houthis and West Bank Hezbollah. What you have is Israelis engaging in terrorist acts against both states, then conflating retaliation with cooperation.

Being pro-Israel and being pro-Palestine are mutually exclusive positions since Israel is genociding Palestine.

That’s like saying you can be pro Nazi and pro jew.

You have to be pro-Israel as the US but that doesn’t mean you can’t be pro-Palestinian

Like I said: Freedom. 🇺🇸🦅🍔