I feel like that’s a pretty well thought out theoretical! Will admit to still not having seen the new Dune movie so mostly going by the book.
I don’t know if I explicitly ever read into Dune that particular “Dark Side” interpretation of the Duel before as since it is so solidly from Paul’s perspective it seemed to be painted in terms of something nessisary to survive further and thus more like a morally neutral painted thing. A loss of innocence for sure but not nessisarily any more so than other fantasy protagonist who took the same sort of step of killing for the first time. He wasn’t granted much autonomy to completely peaceful exit the situation by Jamis so his options were more or less try and kill or cement his one likely route to survival. With the “locking in fate” thing painting his choice to die in the duel rather than kill as maybe for the greater good for nebulous wibbly wobbly timey wimey reasons.
It almost felt to me since the books were so bloody weird with plot points shooting the moon (though after awhile more like jumping the shark in personal opinion) and the factor of such grand prescience weakened a lot of the moral picture of any grand themes of Paul becoming an absolute monster as he’s got such a solid “greater good” he’s working towards that doesn’t really have theoreticals?
Like okay, Paul sees literally everything that will happen from the arrayed options so his demise is always placed as being stopping a series of dominoes from falling by plucking the first one to fall out of the lineup… but those grand losses are almost always impersonal. He at the same time is a human with human desires for personal safety for him and his loved ones which doesn’t place him as nessisarily “bad” just kind of instinctively alive. The plot always frames this as ultimately selfish but really only from the perspective of having a complete and total knowledge of how everything single action is going to eventually play out. It’s eclipsing human moral frameworks by this bizzare aspect of sizing it up to a Godlike scale. Paul can make a “good choice” as essentially a God working on that scale of knowledge or a “bad choice” as singular human with a bias towards survival. While an interesting hypothetical I think that removes him strictly from the territory as being at all relatable on a moral scale to a conventional ethical paradigm. Like for all Paul’s prescience he is limited in his ability to affect the board state so a lot of what happens is painted as his fault because of a choice he makes but if you look at the choices made where he really sort of fucks the dog on a God-like scale it’s generally for reasons which make him relatable as a person.
Absolute power corrupting absolutely or later themes that people really need to not think too collectively and not create cults stikes me as not being Paul’s downside. He didn’t ask for the power he has to be dropped into his lap and can never fully get ahead of the consequences of having that power so I don’t think Paul is painted as being a complete subversion of being a self insert turned bad guy so much as being a " tragic hero Chosen One" just being a hell on earth situation that he needs to weather with highs and personal lows. The framing sort of struck me as a fairly typical compounding trauma storyline where all the terrible things that happen to him make him more “heroic”.
This is all sort of personal opinion though. I feel like I don’t exactly love the Dune universe. My reading of them was largely because while I was staying in Japanese guesthouses I tended to read whatever English novels were left behind by previous occupants.
Dang you’ve made me reconsider a few things. You’re right in that Dune is not subverting the Chosen One but more the Foreign Messiah trope. And also the fact that the Paul’s arc is shown as tragic than a decent into Evil. Having Power didn’t necessarily make him Evil but that depends on who you ask.
(I also love your phrases. "Wibbly wobbly…“ and fucking the dog…)
I do see your point of the lack of free will removing any morality conundrum off Paul. Depending on the scale of foresight (next week, next 10 years, next few centuries), the weight of each decision flips on its head. E.g. killing millions of sandpeople is bad on a small scale… but super necessary when the entire human race is on the line. The more books you read, the more it feels that Herbert ‘retcons’ everything. The only insight into Paul’s character and his decisions have to be judged before he went all Godlike (pre drinking Water of Life).
My introduction to Dune isn’t as cool as yours as I mostly audiobooked so it’s hazy. Maybe not with Jamis but potentially with Fade Rautha, he was faced with a Choice. With fight against Jamis for example, Paul knew he could most probably win so his actions were chosen. I brought the Dark Side theme (and conversely the Good) into this since the Taoist philosophy of the Force is quite sympathetic to the message of “understand your role is on a cosmic scale and please try not to have ego”. Luke, if he was a Yoda level Jedi, may not have made same Choice as Paul (assuming Paul could only see glimpses into small future at this stage). He would have simply be struck down as Obi Wan had done? If we give Luke prescience, then yeah, he’ll probably do as Paul does and try for the Greater Good.
True test of character is when you have incomplete information and then are judged by your intent… and there are only a handful of moments where Paul consciously pushes the dominoes available to him. Paul is shown, in those few moment of actual agency, to make the Choice towards survival, revenge and Ego (one of which in my head can classify him as somewhat Evil on my scale, but different on yours since survival+family is a relatable and human trait). Whether he could glimpse 1Million years into future or 10 years, that’s up to debate. Extrapolations on incomplete information is dangerous… But he chose to consciously trust it. Surprise surprise, it was the bestest decision in the universe! Luke is shown as well meaning Good and, if in Paul’s shoes, therefore would push the dominoes that favor immediate bonds and choosing the Right thing (not killing Palpatine when he had the chance for example?). Surprise surprise, it would be the bestest decision in the universe.
Yep, throwing in foresight completely allows Paul to sidestep ethics. And cue years of trolley problems. We don’t have counter factuals and just have to play along with Herbert’s word which as you said, jumps many sharks and takes plenty of narrative shortcuts.
My entire argument hinges on this assumption: prescience, as depicted in the books was not a 100% Omniscience. More like hallucinogenic coffee where your previous knowledge and biases affect the path of extrapolation. When Paul gets generations of Matriarch knowledge, he can extrapolate better and further. Before that, he’s somewhat relatable and makes choices which can be looked at as self serving. Luke would have done the same… Yoda may not have due to his trust in the Force.
(Sorry for the length. Thank you for engaging)
I dunno if it’s nessisarily subverting the Foreign messiah trope either particularly.
In parable there’s a lot of overlap with the white messionic saviour trope just the indigenous peoples are obscured by sci-fi. The Fremen are depicted sort of as braves of the “noble savage” variety having an innate connection to the land in the form of their connections to sandworms, walking without rhythm etc and are visually othered blue by spice. Paul learns things about himself by their adoption and ultimately rises up through their ranks to lead them, takes a concubine in their ranks who represents his “love” but ultimately marries and legitimizes his connection to an offworld Princess. The Muslim/Islamic coding doesn’t particularly help matters. The whole Sandworm thing is coded to bring to mind oil drilling. Uplifting the Fremen society is also not without consequence - doing so is destined to perpetuate a massive out of control religiously motivated slaughter across the universe… Which is not so great. Smacks a little of replacement narratives which puts emancipation always at someone’s expense of being just replaced on a heirachy. Even the names Atraidies is Greek coded and Harkonnen is ripped from Finnish making the houses kind of White coded, particularly since the whole “Western Civilization” thing is often coded as the legacy of the Greeks and Romans (its part of why important government buildings basically are built to resemble faux Greek temples).
Paul also gets his powers basically from a Eugenics based breeding program which more or less legitimizes that process.
So while many look at Dune as a subversion of colonial tropes the framework that paints Paul as a devisive figure also sort of hinges on this idea of him being a good spirited race traitor who manages to become more Fremen than the Fremen whose fall from grace inevitably sparks the downfall and replacement of the (Western coded) civilization he comes from killing billions…
I recognize generally the instinct is to go with the kindest spirited read about these things which I can’t slam anyone for. I don’t think good faith readings aren’t nessisarily a moral failure, it’s human to want to extend the benefit of the doubt, it’s just critique is evolving to see things more pluristically. People like what they like and this particular author isn’t exactly reaping any benefits of influence, he died almost 40 years ago. People are gunna reintegrate his work to try and adapt it to modern attitudes just like they do with things like Tarzan, Lovecraft and Dances with Wolves. There is however a kernel of supremacy in the work, unwittingly placed or not (I haven’t looked into the personal deets of the author’s beliefs and maybe it’s better that way) that is a product of the compounding and normalization of other like works that we are growing up to see weren’t particularly good for everyone.
Maybe however my particularly harsh read is an extrapolation of my own background. I am a West Coast Canadian. We are encouraging ourselves as a society to have a really hard think about indigenous affairs and attitudes. Like its pretty normal where I am for all events, meetings and performances to be preceeded by a Land Acknowledgement and a lot of my friends in acedemia and the arts world are actively trying to fully subvert, credit or recognize and append this stuff so we can start dismantling the structures we’re all unwittingly complicit in. I have buddies from the States who are pretty leftist who are just entirely mystified by the depth and breadth of the process. Yet I am no angel. I love the Anno series of video games which very uncritically depicts a very sanitized version European expansion and capitalist Empire. I watch and enjoy anime that routinely has aspects which are often ridiculously sexist in treating women more like beloved pets than people. I think Miyazaki was right about anime while still enjoying the fruits of that industry. So I am not gunna say “We should spurn Dune once and for all!” but like… I also think we can learn from it and not let it entirely off the hook.
Trying to summarize your treatise, please correct if mistaken…
You’re saying that Dune doesn’t subvert the foreign Messiah due to the fact that Paul isn’t shown to be wrong. As discussed above, for plot reasons and due to prescience. He represents a different face of Western colonial expansion and since a hierarchical undercurrent is always present, the subversion doesn’t really happen.
Ugh, I agree. At least for his arc, it is shown to be a heavy burden but a necessary evil. It does propagate the idea “sometimes you just need to hand all power to one man who knows more than you”. My bad… I realize I may have been confusing the book and Villeneuve’s portrayal of Paul (hope you do get to see it one day!).
For my education (as I am curious to hear you’re thoughts [if you’ll humor me but no pressure]), I will try to push the “benefit of doubt” narrative and still try to justify Herbert a bit in regards to the pluralistic viewpoints you’ve laid out.
I get what you mean by seeing the broader context. The Fremen are shown to have a fluid government, more democratic than the Empire. They have more connection to the land, understand their shared history, value of life, value of resources and balance. I’m imagining a rosy native tribe close to nature, drugs and shit. Paul goes there, learns how they live, somewhat adopts their values and is free from the matrix.
If Paul is shown as narratively perfect, then the ‘indigenous’ views he carries are also weighed higher than the Imperial mindset. Yes nothing may have changed since the Fremen slotted into a hierarchical structure and paid for it, I think still Herbert acknowledged that indigenous views were ‘better’. A ‘civilized’ white man didn’t teach them a better way of living, instead he was corrupted to their way of thinking and worked with them to defeat the Empire.
As to wielding power and somewhat adopting a hierarchical mindset, I naively believe that intentions matter. In Paul’s example, he had the bestest of intentions. If there was no war, I think he would happily abdicate power, fulfill the dreams of the Fremen by giving them a healthy ecosystem and go live with his love (I would sidebar argue he actually loved Chaini and kept the princess as his concubine). I know power corrupts but what could he do other than fight for what he believed in… I know it’s all on trust and faith and lovey dovey stuff.
In your case, you acknowledge structures you’re complicit in and with what power you have, you are trying to nobly change for better. Yes wielding power can be done “humanely” by asking for permissions and consulting everyone before making decisions etc… but in times of urgency/high stakes, autocracy with a philosopher king/Jedi Master/Omniscient Paul is generally preferred. People who may try to fight you/Paul, probably do not want to pay the price of emancipation/equality. How else are we supposed to enact change other than using our power over others?
