ITT: A bunch of non-vegans complaining that content posted to a vegan community makes them uncomfortable.
Also ITT: A bunch of people who haven’t been convinced to go vegan asserting how to convince people to go vegan. Not them, but other people of course.
I know I’m going to piss off every single group with this unpopular opinion, but I view veganism/vegetarianism and religion similarly.
Both of them come with benefits and downsides. The extent of these benefits and downsides differ from person to person. There’s no “right” answer, talking about your choice is perfectly fine and I don’t really care what you do either way, but I don’t like it when you try too hard to convert me.
People that want to convert you to their religion are usually concerned about YOU (saving your soul, etc.), so it’s reasonable that it’s YOUR choice to decline. The only concern is about your own well being.
People that want to convert you to veganism, on the other hand, are only concerned about the animals you’re exploiting - it has nothing to do with you personally. Your choice to decline means you’re condemning hundreds of animals to die every year for the rest of your life. This is a hard pill to swallow for animal sympathizers, so you must understand why arguments by vegans tend to be quite passionate.
But the two really aren’t similar, other than the fact that they both make you uncomfortable.
I’m completely on your side, but I disagree that declining veganism condemns hundreds of animals to die. If someone goes vegan, does that mean that those animals will then live?
If your belief is that people shouldn’t try so hard to convince people of their beliefs, then why are you trying to spread that belief to others instead of just keeping it to yourself?
What are your reasons for comparing veganism to religion? Aside from having a strong opinion I see no real similarities. To me it feels like non vegans want this comparison to be valid to be able to make it about personal choice when it really is about respecting others.
Also the “there is no right answer” argument is always in favor of the status quo which is factory farming animals. Is that really something you want to preserve?
I, on the other hand, went vegan so that I can be justified in not watching those videos
And now instead I get to watch this cute video of a cow that’s friends with a dog, without having to repress awkward questions about why animal cruelty is only socially condemned for certain animals and not others.
The dog is obviously vegetarian
Unlike cats, which are obligate carnivores, dogs are only opportunistic carnivores and do just fine on vegetarian and even vegan dog foods.
Not vegan, but I can definitely agree factory farms are vastly underregulated
50% personal convenience, 50% feeling like I should prioritize human suffering like homelessness and sweatshops first
It’s cheaper to eat vegan food than animals. Use the money you save on groceries to fix homelessness and sweatshops.
I feel like that sign is a bit alienating, which is unfortunate because it perpetuates the idea that vegans are holier than thou. As a person that (i think) understands the basic reasoning behind veganism (intentional non-participation in animal exploitation and cruelty?) i wish that more people would consider it. Hey, maybe that should be a sign
People have been saying that for decades. It doesn’t work. I never understood the concept of “protests shouldn’t make me feel uncomfortable or inconvenience me.” That kind of undercuts the purpose of a protest and trying to spread a message. If you make it so it’s easy to ignore, it doesn’t work. Without fail there’s always the “ugh, someone who tries to make me feel bad about torturing and killing animals is simply not going to convince me to do otherwise.” It’s such a shitty excuse.
Are you aware of the backfire effect? https://effectiviology.com/backfire-effect-facts-dont-change-minds/
The excuses are always weak because no is trying to convince you or even themselves. They’re politely telling you to fuck off because your type is known for being confrontational and they don’t want to be dragged into an argument.
You’re trying to tell people to cut off the majority of their food supply. That’s an idea that is frankly absurd for most people and it’s a little annoying that egoactivist vegans haven’t taken the hint.
so just as a thought experiment, if you saw what was essentially a modern day holocaust, how would you go about convincing people that willfully(or through lack of knowledge) ignore it? Would you just say "oh I’d better not cause a scene, that would be really egotistical of me "? also cut change != cut off, there are vegan options for a huge range of palates, we are just so used to the current meat diet that anything else feels alien, despite other societies doing fine with these diets.
no is trying to convince you or even themselves
You came to a vegan community and insulted them. Are you fucking dense? You’re being confrontational.
This is something that I often think about in connection with veganism.
I can sit down and watch a video about how vegetables are produced. It might be boring, but I could watch it.
Most carnists, on the other hand, can’t sit and watch how hamburger, sausage, cheese, etc. is produced. For them to enjoy that food, they have to ignore all the suffering behind it.
I don’t think many people are bothered by cheese making videos, the basic gist is dumping enzymes into milk to separate the water from the fat, then the fatty components are sometimes aged to develop flavor. The enzymes are produced by bacteria these days, so it’s not like it involves a gory butchering step.
Highlighting contradictions in people’s beliefs is good, actually. If they choose to be willfully ignorant of cruelty while reaping the benefits, then they’re not going to face that contradiction from you asking nicely while carefully avoiding any implication that they might be doing something wrong. Rather, it’s the opposite - you want to make it as difficult as possible for them to ignore what they’re doing. But of course, since they are trying to remain ignorant, it can be expected that they will react with hostility when you call attention to it, no matter how nice and polite you are about it. The only way to avoid provoking such a response is by allowing them to keep the cruelty out of sight and out of mind, in which case they will have little motivation to go vegan and you’ve rendered yourself useless.
People who have neither been convinced nor convinced others of veganism love to offer their perspective on how we can be more convincing which invariably seems to consist of defanging our criticism and going out of our way to avoid making people to confront the cruel realities caused by their actions.
Isn’t “I’m for the intentional non-participation in animal exploitation and cruelty” just a consequence of “I saw the videos you refuse to watch”, hence similarly alienating and holier than thou?
Maybe even more so. “I can’t continue because I saw a video” could be an unreflected emotional statement, whereas yours sounds like a moral argument.
Or maybe getting people uncomfortable and forced to think about it, and actively face the dissonance is effective. Maybe they get mad and confrontational, but then you have to ask why.
Why are you doing something whose moral implications are making you uncomfortable?
Same thing goes for shit like buying stuff made by people in horrible working conditions. Maybe we shouldn’t feel as if we are entitled to being comfortable all the time, especially when we do so at the expense of others. What if it was you in the place of the worker or animal? Are you okay with continuing on like this?
And it makes people uncomfortable because it makes them see themselves as a bad person. But hey, maybe you should feel uncomfortable if you are doing something you yourself consider bad.
I mean vegans are welcome to be vegan. If you want you can mention these things if you think they might matter to someone but in the end what is important to a vegan isn’t going to be important to other people and that’s fine. In the end suffering is life and we all are made to suffer so that someone else can exploit us. The only difference with meat is that it’s nutritious and something our body makes good use of. Humans on the other hand are exploited so that the privileged can continue to be privileged.
I’ve seen the video i have worked on farms it doesnt bother me terribly
The videos made me want stricter regulation, it didn’t make me want to go vegan or cut down on meat.
But there are other reasons to be a little more conservative with meat in my diet.
The alternatives of Seitan and tofu are healthier, cheaper and available. Not the heavily processed kind, just the basic ones, are definitely healthier than meat. I try to replace meat regularly by those… especially Seitan can be quite good, it has a good ‘bite’ to it
I am of two minds on the topic. I am sitting here realizing that lab-grown meat and the meat-like alternatives are all, by definition, processed foods. Like, lab-grown meat is just going to end up being beef-like-Velveeta at the end of the day.
If you look into the history of processed foods and why we moved towards them they have some pretty disastrous consequences for our modern life.
I watched some pretty terrible films. Watching those did make me cut down on meat and milk, and it made me try to source my animal products from more ethical sources. I still haven’t been able to make the full commitment to veganism or vegetarianism, though, unfortunately.
That being said, I do wish these kinda of films were shown in schools. It would make most people more conscious of the cruelty and harm caused by these industries, and maybe there would be more push to move to more ethical ways of doing things in the meat and dairy industries.
ethical rape. ethical murder. ethical looking the other way.
I spent years chasing my tail trying to be an “ethical” consumer of intelligent creatures. Each time realizing, fuck, I’ve been lying to myself, complicit in my own brainwashing. There’s no such thing as the ethical consumption of intelligent creatures.
This is fair. You are right. I am not claiming that my way of eating is ethical as it stands at all. I am in the camp of wanting lab grown meat to be widely available and cheap. That is ethical if done right. I already eat meat substitutes, but my finances are not great and sometimes it’s hard to beat the cost effectiveness/nutritional value of regular ground beef or eggs and bacon. In those cases I at least try to buy the least tortured meat I can afford, if you get what I am saying. I do appreciate that there are empathetic people like you in the world.
This is the attitude that makes people turn away and ignore the entire issue. The fact of the matter is that people don’t care about animals and they think this viewpoint is absurd. You have to give them arguments that are self-serving, because they will never equate “ethical meat” with “ethical murder”.
