Permanently deleted
I’m a non-binary person who used to be pretty transmedicalist, if not outright transphobic and especially enbyphobic. Part of what brought me around was a de-escalation in the anger around explaining trans issues. When I first became aware of issues around using pronouns and non-binary people in 2012-ish, there was a lot of fury and very little real explaining. Just people berating others over not asking everyone for their pronouns or not understanding things about trans people. I was too scared to ask questions because everyone seemed so ready to jump down others throats and it really soured me, to the point of hanging around hate sites. It wasn’t the only thing that pushed me in that direction but it certainly didn’t push me away from being hateful.
A good part of what helped me come around understand was de-escalation of the anger and a genuine effort to explain things slowly and without judgement. After a while, sites started putting out longer articles about the nuances of trans and non-binary identities, and after I finally broke away from the hate sites, reading those helped me finally get it. I understand some of the anger. I get mad too. But I know from experience that yelling doesn’t help convert anyone.
I’d like to remind everyone that “bee kind” includes not accepting, normalizing, and ignoring transphobic opinions and beliefs. We’re all together in this.
I’d like to remind you that you don’t get to redefine words.
Having said that, I spent many hours having reasoned talks with *phobes and getting then to slowly see some light somewhere. Even if it’s a glimmer, I think that’s worth it. You don’t get to tell me that I should yell at those people.
I didn’t notice any attack against me. I was just commenting on that I don’t think that aggression against -lets call them- consevatives, neo-Nazi’s, right wingers, whatver, works or is wanted
I was just commenting on that I don’t think that aggression against -lets call them- consevatives, neo-Nazi’s, right wingers, whatver, works or is wanted
I’ve been nice to them and trying to politely educate them for over 20 years now, since W was in office. I’ve convinced a grand total of 2, and in the meantime, 30 million worse ones have arisen.
Fuck them. I’m done assuming they only hate me because they’re uneducated. They hate me because they get off on hate, and all the education in the fucking world doesn’t matter to them. So I treat them like scum, and their arguments like jokes, because they are.
Don’t like it? Too bad. Cry more, salty.
Inaction against intolerance is a form of action, is it not? “Bee kind” is not just a call to not be mean, it’s a call to act in kindness.
I believe the poster is probably right in that it stirs more toward fostering acceptance rather than simply ignoring hate.
It’s not compelled speech, per se—Beehaw users need to have an active role in order to make it the kind of place people want to bee.
Many of these people don’t share your opinions
What “opinions” are being referred to here, hmm? Be specific.
You’re stuck with them anyway, so you may as well learn how to get along with them.
Do you say the same thing to bigots? Or do you only self-righteously lecture minorities? Sod off.
Oh look, exhibit A arrived. Guess we just need to tolerate bigotry then since we share a planet with these people ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Here’s an idea: Why don’t you go comment on reddit or 4chan and leave me the fuck alone? I didn’t come to beehaw to deal with exhausting people like you.
You say that
People need to be educated, and you’re not going to change their minds by becoming hostile.
Is a bad take, but then your follow up explanation doesn’t really go into detail about the sentiment behind this statement and reads completely off topic. Do you really think hostility is necessary to educate? Like when responding to an ignorant comment, are you yelling at them? As irrational as some phobics are, I agree you’re not going to change their minds by flying off the handle and yelling at them or using hostile language. Not only do many people of all opinions respond poorly to that, the ones making bad faith arguments want you to get pissed and make you look irrational. Don’t fucking let them.
Bad take. I don’t want it to be up to me as a trans person to educate anyone anymore. And if they’re bad faith ban them lmao.
Bad take. I don’t want it to be up to me as a trans person to educate anyone anymore.
No, this is a bad take. You’re in the best possible position to educate people about your own thoughts, feelings, and what it is like being trans. Your voice can make changes that would help other trans people. If everyone shared this attitude, the only people educating others about trans would be non-trans people who have no idea what it’s like to be trans.
If they truly are in bad faith, you would still have to engage them beyond reading one question to know that for sure, and this side of the LGBTQA+ community has a really bad habit of immediately being triggered by pretty much any questions about trans topics, regardless of how they are presented or by whom.
I read this thread and I agree with you. I can’t give up on those who don’t understand.
I wanna add though, I chose Blahaj Zone (the trans safe space instance) because I’m finding arguments distracting. I think at this point, I get a lot more pride and hope out of finding out an artist or musician is trans. Everytime Pigstep plays in minecraft I just stand there and enjoy it.
It’s not a trans persons responsibility to have to explain their existence though. Can you imagine how exhausting that would be? Give them a break. Give them some cover. I actually love all my trans friends and I try to listen and see what they want. I don’t put the burden on them to be the trans explainer in all situations.
I just give them love when they need it, and an ear when they need it. I think, just like all of us, they just want to exist and not be hassled about it most times, and if given the right space and the right moment they might tell you about their experience and maybe you’ll get a chance to help.
“Never argue with stupid people they’ll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience” -Mark Twain
Besides which, it’s not kind to spew vitriol, nor is it productive. It’s certainly understandable to be outraged. It makes sense. You certainly can’t ignore such things, it’s not right. Responding in hatred only feeds the conviction of the ignorant and diminishes the righteousness of your own stance.
It’s a lose-lose.
I won’t even start talking about who benefits from everyone fighting each other… Certainly not us!
your follow up explanation doesn’t really go into detail about the sentiment behind this statement and reads completely off topic
Are you misinterpreting my post? These are not arguments said by me – these are arguments that come from bad-faith actors who are polluting what are supposed to be welcoming forums by putting the onus on us to behave politely when they are coming into threads with their nonsensical gish gallop. Here you can read more about this. It’s the “You got upset, I win” bullshit that infested reddit and is now infesting Lemmy.
Like when responding to an ignorant comment, are you yelling at them?
Sometimes, yes, and it is not my place to defend my right to exist, and now I’m yelling at you.
you’re not going to change their minds by flying off the handle and yelling at them or using hostile language
Again, changing their minds is not my place. In an inclusive forum, LGBT+ people don’t have to defend our right to exist constantly. If someone wants to learn, there are places they can go that won’t exhaust a bunch of innocent people trying to exist.
the ones making bad faith arguments want you to get pissed and make you look irrational
Yes, and this is why they need to be removed from this community. They don’t belong in a space that is supposed to be validating and welcoming to all.
Don’t fucking let them.
Oh wow, haven’t heard this one before a million times from bigots and their defenders. Thanks for the contribution, Dr. Phil. Now go fuck yourself. Reported.
It’s the “You got upset, I win” bullshit that infested reddit and is now infesting Lemmy.
It’s what I call the “4chan mentality” where they just want you to react - they’ll do or say anything to get you to interact with them. As long as you’re responding, they feel like they won on some level.
But getting upset and hostile doesn’t stop them. They enjoy that. That’s part of the problem.
It is literally part of Beehaw rules to be nice to each others, cf this excerpt from beehaw rules:
If you aren’t nice, we’ll remind you to be nice. If you continue to be problematic, we’ll escalate from there, but it will be on a case-by-case basis. If your first reply when we ask you to be nice to each other is to tell us to “fuck off”, we will respond in kind.
It is also part of the rules to not be transphobic, cf
we simply do not tolerate intolerant behavior. Being explicitly racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, or bigoted in any other fashion is not tolerated here.
If you find a transphobic post and you feel that you are unable to reply nicely, the correct course of action would be to report said transphobic post.
If you are not content with this rule of “be nice” I’m afraid Beehaw is not for you
Are you misinterpreting my post? These are not arguments said by me – these are arguments that come from bad-faith actors
If that truly is the case, I guess I did. My bad. But considering you said it was a bad opinion you saw, and not someone else saying that opinion was bad, you should maybe reword your post or re-read mine because I disagree that one argument is a bad opinion.
Oh wow, haven’t heard this one before a million times from bigots and their defenders. Thanks for the contribution, Dr. Phil. Now go fuck yourself. Reported.
This is exactly what I’m talking about. Two misunderstandings, but your first instinct is to tell me to go fuck myself and report my comment. Now it’s hard to tell you’re actually being genuine about this argument not being your own. You’re not going to change minds by being a cunt and just having them removed. You clearly do not care about changing opinions; just protecting your own.
I mean, swap out the implied “protecting your own (opinion)” with “protecting your own (place on the Internet where we can live largely free from well-meaning but ignorant people, actual bigots, and sea lions)” and I do think that was OP’s point, yes.
i don’t know why you’ve reported this because the person you’re talking to clearly is not doing what you’re charging them of doing. they just disagree with you–and, well, we’re not going to throw someone who clearly isn’t a bad faith actor or a nazi off the site for disagreeing with you on whether or not hostility toward transphobes is a good tactic or not.
I disagree. I don’t mind if they want to be polite to transphobes and take that approach, but I think I made it clear in my post that I’m disgusted with people who arrogantly presume to lecture us on how we need to be nicer. It’s all part of the severely misguided idea that people withdraw allyship because we’re not kind and patient enough. Sometimes anger is justified. I’d much rather someone be angry at me while defending equity and human rights, vs. someone being a polite bigot.
Please do let me know your thoughts though, because maybe it is I who needs to take a break.
Even back in the 80s we didn’t excuse bigotry, no matter the age or the history of the person. We maybe didn’t feel as safe calling it out publicly back in the day, but it was certainly discussed. A bigot is a bigot, end of story. There was no excuse for it in 1983- when the ones “from a different time” were young!- and there’s still no excuse for it forty years later.
I saw an after school special called “What If I’m Gay?” from the 80s that was surprisingly progressive and didn’t lean on stereotypes or tropes. My elementary PE teacher was an LGBT+ activist, and we had at least one openly LGBT+ speaker at a school assembly who spoke about acceptance, and I grew up in a small conservative town.
Even Nirvana wrote in the liner notes for one of their albums that sexists and homophobes shouldn’t buy their records or come to their shows.
I didn’t know a lot of openly trans people back then, but that’s because many people didn’t feel safe coming out. Regardless, I can’t imagine having responded with the brand of ignorance and hate we were actively pushing back against.
With that being said, LGBTphobia was certainly commonplace back then, but as you said, there was no excuse. People knew better, but they participated in it anyway.
