I’m someone who believes landlording (and investing in property outside of just the one you live in) is immoral, because it makes it harder for other people to afford a home, and takes what should be a human right, and turns it into an investment.
At the same time, It’s highly unlikely that I’ll ever be able to own a home without investing my money.
And just investing in stocks means I won’t have a diversified portfolio that could resist a financial crash as much as real estate can.
If I were to invest fractionally in real estate, say, through REITs, would it not be as immoral as landlording if I were to later sell all my shares of the REIT in order to buy my own home?
I personally think investing in general is usually immoral to some degree, since it relies on the exploitation of other’s labour, but at the same time, it feels more like I’m buying back my own lost labour value, rather than solely exploiting others.
I’m curious how any of you might see this as it applies to real estate, so feel free to discuss :)
Unless you’re part of a greater organized movement that has the ability to make effective changes, not investing is just screwing yourself over so someone else can make the money. Invest. Buy a home. Save up for retirement. Have nice things. Go on vacations. It’s okay to not be the poorest person on Earth. You are not the problem.
I appreciate that take.
I just don’t want to be yet another contributor of many to a problem, y’know? Like how even though corporations are by far the largest contributors to climate change, I still try to reduce the excess emissions I possibly produce whenever I can just to help a tiny bit more.
I’m still investing in the stock market regardless, I just want to make sure that diversifying my portfolio won’t have an outsized negative impact on others since, well, that would suck. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I believe a single person having two or even three properties isn’t an issue. As long as you’re a fair and honest landlord. Owning isn’t for everyone. Renting is a viable option for many people. Especially if someone is going to live somewhere for only around a year.
There are entire corporations that revolve around slumlording. High rents, poor maintenance, shitty lease terms with hidden fees, kicking out low income renters to raise rates for new tenants, leaving units empty when there are lots of homeless, etc.
John Oliver did a nice episode about these types of slumlords. THESE are the issue. Career landlords. For people owning more than 2 homes if we heavily taxed/fined (like a years worth of rent) empty units (defined as not rented for 4 months out of the year) this would be a start to fix the housing crisis.
Yes, and I appreciate your greater conscience. However, just knowing you functioning with that in mind, I believe you will not be a problem. You will generally behave in a manner that is helpful to humanity. You might make mistakes, but definitely learn from them too.
Also, in my opinion, Lemmy tends to have a rigid all-or-none take on certain matters, such as landlords all being bad. I think that in reality, some people don’t want to own homes. They want to rent. So landlords are not only inevitable, but necessary. The relationship becomes exploitative when the situation starts favoring the landlord too much to the point that the tenant is exploited, such as landlords own wayyy too many properties or properties on sale in the market are too expensive forcing people to rent.
However, if you were a landlord in an equitable housing market and I needed a residence to rent for a while, I’m guessing it would he a mutually beneficial relationship.
If you truly believe investing, and especially investing in real estate, is immoral, then you shouldn’t do it, the same way you shouldn’t eat pork if you keep kosher or halal.
Anything else, especially “it feels more like buying back my own lost value” is such a gigantic cope that I’ve seen pictures of it taken from the ISS.
Either accept that your beliefs are incorrect, and participate in the market like a normal person, or stick to your beliefs when it’s inconvenient too.
This behaviour is morally no better than that of megachurch pastors who preach the immorality of gay sex and get caught paying men to fuck them in the ass.
This behaviour is morally no better than that of megachurch pastors who preach the immorality of gay sex and get caught paying men to fuck them in the ass.
OP didn’t say they preached their morals though. Holding morals and preaching them are different things. I’d put this more in the category of people who pray secretly to a different god than the state-enforced religion, since OP is living in a capitalist society whilst not holding capitalist values.
I think there’s got to be room for some grey areas in morality. I abhor late-stage capitalism, but I would not rather die than shop at a chain supermarket.
Holding morals and preaching them are different things.
I fundamentally disagree that this distinction exists, and even if it did this is not a situation where it would apply.
Morals regulate your own actions, there is no point in holding a moral value that you don’t abide by. That makes you a hypocrite whether you preach that value or not.
Preaching it also makes you a public hypocrite if you get caught, but you’re still hypocritical even if you are only betraying a private value, you’re just not accountable to others.
And if that’s all that matters to you then you don’t actually hold that value.
I think there’s got to be room for some grey areas in morality.
There is room when you can draw a clear line as to why a principle ought to apply in one situation but not in another, an argument that “it feels different when I do it” is no such standard.
For instance, killing is permissible in self defense, but murder is not acceptable. Easy line to draw that makes the same practical action morally distinct depending on context (aggressor/victim).
I abhor late-stage capitalism, but I would not rather die than shop at a chain supermarket.
And if that’s your only option that is a pretty straightforward line you can draw that has nothing to do with your personal gain by ignoring an otherwise inconvenient principle.
“I won’t patronise large corporations whenever I have an alternative” is a fair line to draw, as long as you don’t immediately walk back on it as soon as it becomes inconvenient by being slightly out of your way or a bit more expensive.
OP said no such thing, however. They straight up went “when I break my own moral principles it doesn’t feel as bad as when others break them against me” which is utter horseshit.
You mean to tell me that when you try to kill someone it somehow feels less bad than when someone else tries to kill you? No fucking way, what a discovery!
So yeah, unless OP can actually provide a generalized standard by which anyone can do what they’re doing and still maintain an ethical position, they’re just finding excuses to placate their own conscience, while pretending to maintain a coherent moral standard, when really they never held anything of the sort, they just don’t like to be on the receiving end of the stick.
I fundamentally disagree that this distinction exists, and even if it did this is not a situation where it would apply.
But it does exist; preaching is persuading or guiding others to follow your own beliefs. If no distinction existed then we would be mechanically bound to preach what we believe, and we’re not, so it’s a choice.
Everyone is a hypocrite to some degree. There are levels of hypocrisy that are breathtaking, and levels that are just meh.
‘Thou shalt not kill’ is a biblical commandment, not a principle. It comes from the fundamental principle of harm minimisation, and the two examples you gave are different (extreme) applications of that principle, see: the trolley problem etc. It’s morality for babies; looking at extreme black and white cases to be able to get a clear, consensus issue. Life is rarely that simple. Morality is never that simple.
They straight up went “when I break my own moral principles it doesn’t feel as bad as when others break them against me”
I’m not sure, that seems like another extreme interpretation of something more nuanced.
This is really one you have to decide for yourself. If you buy and eat a banana and there is a shortage of bananas on the market, are you immoral? As long as housing is bought and sold, it will always be an investment. But if you feel it shouldn’t be, then that is your choice or belief. Not sure if this helps?
Not sure if it adds any more clarity, but to be fair, this question was about morals, which is entirely subjective based on personal opinion.
Thanks for your addition to the conversation though, I appreciate it!
there is no ethical consumption, just do your best.
If you invest in a broad, market-based index fund like VTSAX, then you’re already diversified. Including real estate. Investing in the total stock market (which is what VTSAX is) also includes investing in real estate companies, automatically.
Investing in real estate beyond that would actually make your portfolio LESS diverse, overweight on real estate relative to the market.
As for the moral aspect, stop trying to cope. Either admit that “this is immoral but I want to do it anyway”, or admit “this is not immoral”. You can’t have your pie and eat it too.
