What is he talking about, public WiFi can easily poison and monitor your DNS requests (most people don’t know or use encrypted DNS), and there’s still tons of non-https traffic leaks all over the place that are plain text. Even if encrypted, there’s still deep packet inspection. VPNs can mitigate DPI techniques and shift the trust from an easily snoopable public WiFi to the VPN’s more trustworthy exit servers.
This guy really needs to elaborate on what he’s trying to say when the cyber security field very much disagrees with this stance. I’m not a huge fan of Proton, but they aren’t doing anything wrong here. You should use it for public Wi-Fi.
Yup. You can grab any unencrypted data passed between the user’s browser and a server literally out of thin air when they’re connected to an open access point. You sit happily at the Starbucks with your laptop, sniffing them WiFi packets and grabbing things off of them.
Oh and you have no idea what the myriad of apps you’re using are connecting to and whether that endpoint is encrypted. Do not underestimate the ability of firms to produce software at the absolute lowest cost with corners and walls missing.
If I was someone who was to make money off of scamming people, one thing I’d have tried to do is to rig portable sniffers at public locations with large foot traffic and open WiFi like train stations, airports, etc. Throw em around then filter for interesting stuff. Oh here’s some personal info. Oh there’s a session token for some app. Let me see what else I can get from that app for that person.
Just FYI https://shop.hak5.org/products/wifi-pineapple. There are ready-made devices that can do basically what you are describing!
Oh nice. Just gotta dress em up like Unifi or Aruba then stick em up on the ceiling.
We need a switch like Firefox has that disallows anything non-HTTPS, but from the phone level. Companies like Apple and Google could also eventually warn apps that they’re going to make it the default setting.
Apps don’t use the system browser to connect to REST endpoints. Neither do they use the OS. Apps typically use a statically linked library. There are use cases for HTTP-only connections so it’s unlikely that those libraries would mess with forcing or even warning its users that they’ve used HTTP instead of HTTPS. Point is Google and Apple can do little in this regard. Unless they scan apps’ source code which could be possible to some extent but still difficult because URLs are often written in pieces.
Also, any unlatched, unfirewalled vulnerabilities you have are immediately available to anyone on that local WiFi network. One thing VPNs may do is cause you to ignore requests from systems on the local network, which helps.
That’s an interesting one. I know it depends on configuration, but in the run-of-the-mill case, does connecting through VPN stop local services to listen on local IPs? I know our corpo VPN kills local LAN access but I’m curious what the default for OpenVPN/Wireguard might be.
How is DPI a problem if it’s encrypted? That would only work if the attacker had installed their CA cert on your client machine, right?
I’m doing DPI on my own network and I can still view TLS certificate fingerprints and some metadata that provides a good educated guess as to what a traffic flow contains. It certainly better that it’s encrypted, but there is a little information that leaks in metadata. I think that’s what was meant.
True, but this is generally not useful information to anyone. They can see you’re visiting bank.com, but they still can’t see your bank details.
It might be useful if they’re trying to target you for phishing, but a targeted attack is extremely unlikely.
Also, any wireless equipment from the past 15 years or so supports client isolation.
Dpi only works if they install a cert on your phone. Else they can’t crack it (in real time) or you would receive HTTPS errors
You dont need to examine the contents of http traffic to do what many services call DPI.
you can still read unencrypted traffic, like most DNS. Or even without that, you can frequently tell from the endpoint IP who someone is talking to, and what types of applications from port numbers used. Etc.
If you’re torrenting, for example, that’s pretty easy to see.
Yeah, while it is true, lots of VPN companies are grifts just buying VPS’s and installing OpenVPN, this “Cyber security expert” puts far too much faith in HTTPS and probably never seen a lecture from the Black Hat conference
probably never seen a lecture from the Black Hat conference
Not defending Robert Graham because I’m also eyebrow raising his statement. And while you may be 100% correct that he never actually stayed to listen to a lecture, he absolutely spoke at a lot of them since 2000.
I’m not even an expert in this stuff, but with a tool I found online I demonstrated that it was easy to snoop people’s passwords on my school’s wifi networks back in the day. It took minutes.
most people don’t know or use encrypted DNS
But a cybersecurity expert does. That’s the point. If you know those things, VPNs become obsolete, for most people. So why not teach people about it, instead of promoting VPNs?
And can you really trust an extremely profit focused company, that is built on user data, more than your local Café? If you’re in China, sure, use a VPN, they’re the lesser evil. But most spots don’t have the resources or expertise to analyze and sell or otherwise misuse your logs. VPN companies not only do, most rely on it.
If you’re a highly targeted person, it’s another story, but in that case your only hope is Tor or a new identity.
But Proton Bad? I don’t understand. The armchair security nerds on Lemmy want me to hate something.
So why not teach people about it, instead of promoting VPNs?
Ok then, in the meantime the rest of us will use a fucking VPN? I don’t know what “encrypted DNS” means, and I’m 99% you’re going to respond with either “whaaaaat you don’t know something that 99.999% of other people also don’t know? Clearly you are too dumb for the internet” or else “oh sure I’d be glad to explain that! It’s real simple, see when you have a Rosendin gembal, it befrazzles the gesticulators of your brangles (link to a Wikipedia article on brangles). So you just have to re-delineate the scanditrons to break the tensor lines in your scintrins! You can code a fairly simple app from scratch to do it, and there’s a FOSS program someone made to help you identify the cabangs in your computer’s lenticles: (link to a github page that is literally just a transcription of an eldritch god screaming in binary)”
VPNs are extremely user friendly and they are happy to explain in layman’s terms exactly what they do and how they work. If there’s a better way, it’s locked behind years of techie knowledge.
And most users don’t know what a VPN is. In both cases, they’re not gonna learn anything about it. Except you need to pay for a VPN, after figuring out which one is kinda trustworthy instead of snakeoil, while encrypted DNS is a simple setting on any OS. Nothing more. You don’t need whole articles to explain what your product does and why you respect privacy and blah, while not saying a single word that’s true. It’s a simple setting. VPNs are not only user friendly, they’re a full ripoff for most people and snakeoil. They don’t explain what they do in “laymans terms”, most of them just blatantly lie. Anything for the cash. If you want an explanation of encrypted DNS:
A DNS is kind of like your GPS. It translates an address into something more usable, e.g… like your GPS translates ‘123 Baker Street, Washington’ into coordinates, so you can use it on a map, for example. A DNS does the same, but for the internet: It translates “google.de” into a format that is actually readable and usable to the computer. However, to translate “google.de” you need to reach out to someone else, that knows the address. The thing is, if someone just pretends to give the right answer, but in fact gives you their own address, you may end up at the wrong website, or in the GPS example, at the wrong house. So instead of visiting your actual bank’s website, you’re going to visit someone else’s website, which looks basically the same, except once you log into your bank account the attacker can read that and steal all your money. In the GPS example, you would now be at the slaughterhouse instead of Disneyland. An encrypted DNS just means that you specify exactly whom you will trust, for example google, and that you want your communication with google to be encrypted, so no one can even read which website you want to visit.
If someone doesn’t understand this, they wouldn’t understand what a VPN is, even broken down to bare concepts. So for those people: It makes you safe just trust me just set this setting, no app, no account, no money required. Because that’s the level a typical VPN company argues on.
Encrypted DNS doesn’t solve everything. Handshake for TLS sessions is still in clear, you can usually see the SNI, and since we are talking about Wireless, usually this data is available to anybody who is in the vicinity, not just the network owner. This already means that you can see what sites someone is visiting, more or less. TLS 1.3 can mitigate some of this (for those who implement ESNI, but you don’t know that beforehand). Also TLS works until the user is not accepting invalid certificates prompts (HSTS doesn’t work for everything) and there are still tons of HTTP-based redirect (check mailing newsletters and see how many first send you to an HTTP site, for example) that can be used for MiTM attacks.
A VPN moves the trust to a single provider that you can choose, which is much better than trusting every single WiFi network you can attach to and the people connected to it, I would say.
Also if you pay for the VPN (I pay Proton), it’s not true that the company business is based on user data, they are based on subscriptions.
Lmao, we’re not worried about the cafe. We’re worried about the man in the middle. And yeah with enough tech knowledge you can set up an encrypted tunnel home and use your normal connection from there. But most people aren’t that tech savvy
If you’re not relatively tech savy, a typical VPN IS the man in the middle. That’s the problem. A VPN, in itself, is very good. But as you said, non-tech savy users won’t be able to set up a VPN themselves, so they need to trust a company to route all their traffic, be their DNS server, not log anything, not be hacked and not give any data to current or future totalitarian governments. Not even I could recommend any VPN company that fulfills enough points there, especially the security related ones.
But most spots don’t have the resources or expertise to analyze and sell or otherwise misuse your logs.
Most spots don’t have also the resources or expertise to secure their own spot. As I remember, cheap routers used in public places may contain a lot of vulnerabilities.
encrypted DNS
Will it help me if I’m using LbreTorrent do download piracy content on my phone? Or how it would help me to hide my location from mobile apps that extract location from IP?
No. That’s a whole different use case. We’re discussing what most people in a public network should do. Some people, such as whistleblowers, journalists etc. maybe should use a VPN. For you grandparents, it would be pure snake oil. And even as such an endangered person, choosing the wrong, so almost all, VPNs would be even more dangerous.
For your problems, a VPN could be useful, even though for the former I would use the usenet or soap2day-like sites, which do not have you seed that content. If you still want to share it, then use a VPN. ONLY for the torrent process, not for anything else, as that would still be bad for privacy and security, as the VPN company could, and most WILL, surveil and log you. And for the latter problem, don’t use such apps except in closed environments or without internet access.
People can’t learn not to throw trash in the street, climate change that is backed by decades of science is a problem, or hell, they can’t even learn to effectively not click on super suspicious phishing links.
How on earth are they going to learn about implementing encrypted DNS when most barely know the difference between a browser and a computer.
99.9% of people don’t throw trash in the street.
At least in most countries.
I’ve never really understood that argument. Most VPN software I’ve seen forces your DNS through the VPN as well which would bypass a public Wi-Fi’s attempt to DNS poison.
I use a VPN anytime I’m not on my home network just because it’s a super easy way for me to force my DNS to my own custom DNS with Adblock listing on the machine that’s running the VPN endpoint.
It’s wireguard, and it connects to a direct IP address. If someone tries to redirect or otherwise man in the middle of the connection wireguard will simply fail to establish a connection. Thanks to the fact that it uses a similar idea to pgp where the client and server already have each other’s public keys and there’s not really an unencrypted initial handshake even the initial talking has a form of encrypted communication thanks to the key pairings.
So like, my vpn is definitely proving security. Whether or not every random ass VPN you can buy is smart enough to force all DNS over the VPN or anything else I guess I can’t say for sure maybe it’s not common and that’s why but it definitely can be used to help automate some security measures when using a public network
When I first saw this I thought it was funny. The fact that so many people are falling for it has only made it even funnier.
FWIW, Haley Welch might seem dumb as bricks, but she also seems quite sweet - doing charity stuff, keeping her other friend from “that” vid for the ride, etc. As far as people becoming famous for bullshit reasons goes, she seems to be handling it well.
I feel bad for her, honestly. She was open about her sexuality and she’s conventionally attractive, so now she has all these leering old men on TV slobbering all over her.
Bill Maher practically tried to talk her into bed on his show with his creepy shit about mentoring her.
Oof. What is up with these creepy, sweaty dudes on talkshows? I know they somewhat reflect the general populace, but to pull shit like this on air is just boggling.
You know, you’re the first person I’ve seen that’s shared the same view as me (not that I’ve spoken about the topic much! lol)
Woman admits that she has performed an extremely benign sexual act before - ghasp! A girl has given someone a blowjob before!
And more than that, she has a “dumb” accent! Let’s make endless memes about her online basically calling her a slutty moron whose only life skill is sucking cock.
Honestly no wonder women feel pressured to pretend they have no sexual desires
Okay so I haven’t heard about her before this but, from this thread and a quick google search, I feel like I know enough. Anyway. I’m hopeful then that the fame will pass— lots of internet fad celebrities fade and become more or less normal people again soon— but she pockets enough money to live a good life and keep paying it forward.
I didn’t know who she was, so I just assumed it was true and that she was just another celebrity sponsored by a VPN company.
Yup, I don’t know who she is, nor do I particularly care. What I do care about is how Proton behaves, and if they’re going to stoop to the levels other VPN providers go to in order to attract customers, it’s not a service I’d like to support.
I’m currently not a Proton customer, but I’ve been considering it. I’m currently w/ Tuta for email and use a DIY VPN, but I could see switching to Proton as their product line expands.
You think she’s not handling fame well because she’s setting clear boundaries, and reminding fans that she’s not their friend just because she’s famous?
No, because she has a reaction video to every single negative thing anyone says on TikTok. I’m all for her boundaries.
I don’t know how effective VPNs are over a public WiFi network, but I do know it stopped Spectrum from sending me “you are downloading copyrighted material, stop it” emails once I started using one. Fuck Spectrum, I don’t have them anymore, but that seems like a good enough reason to keep using one in certain circumstances.
They need to advertise a legitimate use for their service.
If they don’t have a threat from public wifi or other security concerns to remedy, then the only purpose for their service is to bypass region limits and block infringement notices. They would be considered complicit in such infringement.
That their service also hinders efforts to stop pirates needs to be an “unintended” and “unavoidable” side effect.
I use Proton when I’m on my university’s campus because they switched to using EDUroam for the campus wifi. I used to be a Sys Admin at a different university a while back, and from what I know, EDUroam allows the IT department to monitor basically all of the traffic over the network. I don’t know exactly how deep that stuff goes, but if I was doing anything personal or sensitive like banking or whatever, I’d flip on the VPN on my personal computer. I also don’t have any personal accounts logged in on the school issued laptop because they have it loaded with institutional spyware. Once I graduate, I’ll blank the drive and reinstall the OS to have a decent Lenovo laptop on hand as a spare.
Edit to add: I use Proton because it was the least shady service that I could get for a reasonable price as a student. It is also helpful for finding textbooks. :)
They can’t decrypt HTTPS unless you installed a certificate controlled by them. The only thing they can know is which domains you visited, but not what you did on it.
There are plenty of legitimate uses for their services, they just aren’t things that the vast majority of people actually need. For example:
- access things in a LAN from a WAN - i.e. access a personal PC when you’re at a friend’s house, and your home LAN is behind CGNAT
- get around local laws - e.g. my state requires ID checks for porn and social media, so getting a VPN one state over gets around that
- prevent ISP from seeing the sites you visit - very valid privacy concern, especially since SNI exists to de-mask TLS packets
There are also some sketchier needs, such as:
- get different content on your streaming platform
- hide sharing of illegal content (i.e. piracy)
- perform illegal transactions (e.g. going on Tor to buy drugs or whatever on the black market)
I think VPNs are trying to appeal to more than just the above needs, they’re trying to create needs to grow their marketshare. That isn’t something a reputable VPN should do, or at least that’s something that would make me hesitate to use a given VPN.
The only thing you need to say is “my ISP uses CGNAT” you can’t host anything or run games for your friends without a way to punch through the CGNAT layer. I mean you could use IPv6 if it weren’t still a joke in the US but here we are.
get around local laws
That’s not a legitimate use; it’s an illegal use just like piracy is.
especially since SNI exists to de-mask TLS packets
ECH will finally fix this. https://blog.cloudflare.com/encrypted-client-hello/
SNI is still better than what we used to have. Before SNI, every site that used TLS or SSL had to have a dedicated IP address.
On public WiFi I just vpn into my home network. The issue with public WiFi is that it can be sniffed by anyone in range since there is generally no encryption.
Although pretty much everything we do is over tls these days, and DoH helps protect against even dns sniffing. There’s still at least some risk to working in the clear over a public WiFi network. At least in information gathering, what bank you use, etc.
But, there’s no real benefit in using a paid vpn over one you own unless you’re downloading illegal content, want to watch another Netflix region, or are in a country with heavy Internet monitoring/filtering.
He said “which bank”, which could be determined by the sniffing DNS requests, or seeing which IPs his computer is connecting to.
Not a breach of his personal information (assuming the bank that he’s using and the client he’s using after putting everything in TLS properly).
Possibly the domain is visible with a traffic monitoring tool. Everything else is between you and the bank via HTTPS. Having said that, whatever is not over https is visible to whoever sits on the same network as yourself.
All ISPs are legally obligated to forward that shit to you. The alerts are not from spectrum, they’re just relaying the information.
Right now, copyright owners do not have legal permission to find out who you are directly without a court order. They would only seek that information if they were planning to file a lawsuit.
Media companies know, from the Napster incident, that such actions can backfire stupendously. It’s rare that they even bother anymore. I can go into detail on why, but I’ll leave it out for brevity.
So they send the notice to your ISP, who is legally obligated to match the information on the notice to the subscriber and forward the notice to you.
For many, this goes to an ISP provided mailbox, which most people ignore the existence of it. Clearly spectrum operates differently.
The notices are from copyright holders who have no idea who you are, and can’t determine that information unless they intend to sue you. So those can be, for the most part, ignored.
It’s not your ISPs fault that you got those. They couldn’t give a shit less about what you do on their service, or what you download. They just want you to pay your bill every month and keep the gravy train rolling.
I’m saying fuck Spectrum for other reasons. Either way, there’s less of a trail.
Fair enough. I haven’t used spectrum, so I have no opinion. I’m not in the right country to subscribe to their service, so there’s that.
Have a good day.
Considering how most of the Internet is encrypted with TLS, if you add DNSSEC+DoH/DoT on top, trying to MITM someone on a public WiFi is way harder than it was, unless you’re a state-level adversary and you’re able to craft valid certificate for a domain you don’t control from a globally trusted (root) certificate autority (which will lose its trusted status quite fast once discovered, ex: CNNIC)
Not all applications on your computer may be encrypting their packet traffic properly, though. That goes especially for the applications that might be trying to reach out for resources on your local home network (like printers, file shares, and other home servers) as well as DNS requests which are usually still made in the open. I would not recommend eschewing an entire security layer willy-nilly like that. On public Wi-Fi, I would definitely still suggest either a VPN or using your cell phone as a tether or secure hotspot instead if possible.
Sure, but it’s also like, if you’re stepping away from your laptop for a few minutes should you lock the screen or shut it down completely.
The most secure option is to shut it down completely, but also it’s fine to just lock your screen.
If you’ve already got a VPN and it’s as easy as locking your screen to enable, go for it, use it. But if you don’t, you don’t need to go out and get one. You’ll generally be ok without one.
Yeah, the days of your local coffee shops Wi-Fi being a problem or mostly gone. Not the VPN doesn’t have a place anymore though. If you’re trying to hide your downloading of ISOs from your ISP it’s still a perfectly reasonable method. Or temporarily relocating yourself to another country to make a purchase or watch some streaming content both perfectly reasonable.
Of course some of the streaming providers are getting wise to this.
Because we see which distros you’re using, and we judge you for it.
Gentoo, in 2024? Really? You should be using Arch if that’s your thing. It’s not the 90s any more.
Yeah, pptp will always have a strong purpose and home. I’m more speaking to the viability of commercial anonymization VPN.
I’m not online enough to understand this.
Hailey “Hawk Tuah” Welch is an influencer that gained a lot of popularity from her nickname (the sound of spitting, with HEAVY implications of performing fellacio). She used her platform to voice a very reasonable and intelligent opinion, which surprised a lot of people because her nickname is essentially blowjob queen.
One of her opinions is that it’s important to spread cyber security and used her fame to try to educate the public (potentially a fake story from the image? Idk this drama). And some xit-head claiming to be a cyber security expert ate the onion and offered some shitty advice. Proton fact checked them, because there are a ton of fake news stories about her right now.
I’m pretty sure that Proton quoting her in the first place is fake. I know she’s milking her 15 minutes of fame for all she can, but this seems outside her experience.
that’s gonna brick it. it’s right there in its name.
people on the internet sometimes, ffs.
