It occurs to me that Kutcher and co might not have had access to the court proceedings, testimony, and evidence, but might have had a lot of access to Masterton’s side of the story.
It also occurs to me that being friends with people is complicated and that bad people emotionally loan shark a lot - maybe they felt obligated to send letters of support because they were being guilt tripped about all he’d done for them or because they think being a good friend is supporting no matter what (aka being an enabler).
All that said, Kutcher’s a grown up adult who should have been able to predict that supporting a sex abuser is going to conflict with being involved in an anti-sex abuse organization.
It is a pattern, he had done the same thing before.
From Wikipedia:
“In November 2011, Kutcher received heavy criticism for his tweet in response to the Jerry Sandusky child sexual abuse scandal, calling the firing of Penn State football coach Joe Paterno “in poor taste”. Kutcher subsequently turned over management of his Twitter account to his team at the Katalyst Media company.”
Edit:
The more I read his past I find more disturbing statement that shows red flags.
“Bixler and others have cited additional ways in which Kutcher showed questionable behavior in the past, specifically pointing to a 2003 video of the actor speaking on his MTV show “Punk’d” about actress Hilary Duff. In the video, Kutcher says Duff, who was a minor at the time, is “one of the girls that we’re all waiting for to turn 18. Along with the Olsen twins.””
Back then, that was a pretty damn normal thing for people to say. It’s really awful that that it was so normal, but hopefully most people regret saying things like that now.
It was not normal for a lot of people. But those people were silenced. I’m kinda tired that people are using era as an excuse. What it was is a strong, few influencers allowed assholes to fly their asshole flag out in the open. They encouraged it. It was called edgy. It was called bold. It was called confidence. It was called a lot of things that were all considered positive attributes. Even funny. And a lot of that is how the media back then promoted ideas.
Meanwhile the people who weren’t assholes were called ‘pussies’ by the assholes. In todays world, the ‘pussies’ of yesterday are what we consider normal people today. The people who were stomped on, shut up and quiet. Now that they are allowed to freely fly their ‘we don’t have to shit on others’ flag,
we’re assuming way many people changed. When it’s really just a tip of the balance on who’s collective ideas are more fit for the current time.
We still have the assholes of yesteryear snowflaking they are the victims of the media and complaining about ‘PC’ and cancel culture, balking at the mere idea of consequence for words and actions. These people didn’t collectively change with the times. They’d crawl back to the yesteryear in a second to be celebrated as an asshole if they could.
Sure, Some people may have grown and changed from being the asshole. I have a small handful of relatives that cringe at who they once were, who’s ideas they once followed and they’ve grown as people. But I have enough relatives who also complain about the change and mill on about the good ol days where they could silence everyone who they didn’t agree with/escape culpability.
don’t be fooled for a second that there isn’t still a lot of people who are assholes. We’re just celebrating a different set of rules now to ethically follow now since the metoo movement made its debut and the once quiet people are safer to speak up. Those quiet people aren’t silenced anymore. They just get called PC instead of pussy by the assholes now. That’s as far as the assholes have evolved in today’s world.
I’m somewhat familiar with the case as I follow an ex-scientologist dude on yt (youtube.com/@GrowingUpInScientology) who was present in the court and reported on all nuances. According to him, Kutcher knew about Masterson’s drugging raping habit, also personally knew one of the women named in the case that prosecuted him (she was also present when Kutcher, upon finding her murdered girlfriend, instead calling 911, called his agent and Masterson).
Said letter’s general purpose to the judge is to ask for a lighter sentence in light of the jury decision, and they try to make him look like the nicest person ever walked on earth, always respecting woman and against all drugs that quasi questions the sentence as is. They deserve the backlash.
The 8 people that downvoted you are the type of people that love cancel culture.
Ashton was shitty defending his friend. Ashton does not deserve the backlash he is receiving for the exact reasons you describe.
Then again, Lemmy was up in arms over the LTT situation, and all of my comments saying “hey, lets wait to hear both sides” were HEAVILY downvoted.
I don’t know, this person has done a lot of decent things in his life. I’m not inclined to judge him by his worst decision.
While I would tend to agree, if I’m reading this correctly, they sent the letters for the sentencing… meaning he was already convicted of rape and they were pleading for leniency for an old rapist buddy, like within the last few months. That is a really bad look no matter how you slice it.
He’s also an old friend.
I don’t believe in guilt by association. Asking for leniency for an old friend to a judge, and he didn’t get it, doesn’t make them monsters or rapists by proxy.
If our culture demands every felon be shunned by their friends and family members going forward, then end the perverse charade and just kill everyone upon a felony conviction.
Masterson did a very bad thing, some friends wrote letters to inform the judge that that isn’t all he is and to consider that, not out of malice, but out of compassion.
Man, the internet has absolutely destroyed the concept of nuance. Then again, we only see our “justice,” lol, system as a way to turn the screws on bad people… that our society made, btw. Wanton spectator cruelty without the guilt. Not even a hint of attempts at rehabilitation, and just about everyone roots for a parolee’s failure to confirm their biases.
Advocating maximum cruelty be inflicted on a perpetrator shouldn’t be confused with compassion for the victim. Americans largely ignore that distinction, because it’s convenient, easy, and pleasurable to revel in cruelty and call it kindness.
Or… we could accept that Masterson RAPED people, and maybe don’t give him any support, regardless of his past actions. We don’t need to hold out a hand for the fallen rapist. There are too many people in the world that genuinely need help that wasting even an iota of effort on a rapist is a slap in the face to them, not to mention the people the rapist has harmed. There is no nuance.
Well, so I get that asking for leniency for an old buddy sure. However… the specific crimes he committed and the organization that Ashton works for/runs whatever. That’s a bad fucking look. That’s a real bad fucking look. Like, that undermines a lot of shit he’s done look.
Nobody is saying it makes them monsters or rapists by proxy, it just makes them friends of a rapist who stayed his friend even after it was proven that he raped at least two people, and then asked for him to be treated leniently even though he certainly didn’t grant any leniency to the people he raped. And they’re free to do that. But disapproving of that isn’t guilt by association, that’s just them making choices regarding their relationship with a rapist that other people are free to judge and criticize them for.
It doesn’t make them rapists by proxy, but it does make them someone who believes the rapist they like should be the exception.
meaning he was already convicted of rape
The letters are typically asked for before conviction as a just-in-case. He’s still asking for leniency for his rapist buddy I just thought I’d clarify that little bit.
In other words, whether Ashton Kutcher is actually guilty of anything does not matter, because a “bad look” is like a virus, and conviction enough for people to feel justified in upending his life / work. So proud of this brave new neo-puritanical world we live in today. /s
What’s the new, hip term for witch-hunt in 2023?
You’re right, this kind of thing is nothing new. We’ve always been a society which will turn on a dime on anyone, no matter how good or poor the excuse, if given a good pretext to do so. It seems to be human nature.
Although I tend to agree, I think this was also the correct decision. He would have distracted from the good work the organisation does.
While the organization might do good work, I see far too many red flags in their demands. They are lobbying against end-to-end encryption for chat messages. The argument is that child abusers can hide behind encryption. While this is true, a ban would lead to no privacy for everyone.
The real-life equivalent would be mandatory microphones for everyone so authorities could catch child molesters more easily. Good cause but horrible methodology. And of course, if they succeed, criminals will move to other, maybe their own-built, messaging systems that still have encryption.
https://www.thorn.org/blog/encryption-trend-threatens-child-safety-gains/
Get out of here with your reason. That’s not what the internet is for. Now, would you like a torch or pitchfork?
If that isn’t already the name of some obscure software or package/library/etc I’ll be disappointed it already sounds like I need to import it into my Python code idk what it does but without it shit just crashes
The Torchfork really ties the program together
Any way we can combine the two and make a flaming pitchfork? Maybe a knife-wrench kinda configuration?
I think it’s fair to judge someone directly involved with covering up a rapist when that person is also very vocal and actively involved in combating exactly that crime. That’s a pretty massive lapse in judgement and more indicative of his true character than someone that had a single instance of road rage or similar emotional outburst.
directly involved with covering up a rapist
This is a pretty serious accusation. Just because he wrote a character letter does not mean he is actively involved in covering up a crime, that’s a gigantic leap.
his true character
And what would that be? A person who vouches for his friend? Someone who misjudged another person’s character, a mistake presumably you’d never make?
I think it’s fair to judge
No, you think it’s fun to judge and it’s your excuse to feel morally righteous and superior. You’ve made some accusations and backhanded disparagement based on what info? How is any part of it “fair”?
His worst decision was very relevant to the organization he was part of. I get that they are friends but he probably should be in a good position to understand how unlikely it is that his friend was innocent and how dumb it would be to put himself on the line defending him given what that organization stands for.
I mean… He tocuhed a door knob and didn’t know it was a crime scene to report.
OK, now think of this from the perspective of the victims of Danny Masterson’s crimes - what do you think they feel about Ashton’s letter of support?
Yea, I get it, some will disagree but, in the end, I’m a bigger fan of “call out culture” than “cancel culture”. The former gives the person a chance to course-correct.
But “cancel culture” makes keyboard warriors and the Twitterverse feel saintly, holier-than-thou and powerful because it takes just a few tweets to mess people up! And look righteous while doing it!
Maybe they are valuable members of society after all! /s
You gonna pin the tail on cancel culture and “The Twitterverse” for criminals like Jeffrey Epstein being outed too? Lmao you’re a joke. Masterson RAPED WOMEN, many more of them than the mere handful that were included in the case, i promise you. And his friends went out of their way to use their influence and names to sway a judge in his favor. That’s fucked up, and anyone who says differently is blatantly in support of rapists, rape apologists, or is undoubtedly one themselves trying to justify monstrous behavior.
Of course not. You know that, I know that, everyone reading this knows that, you are just being a troll. Stop, or get blocked.
Oh ok. Then what point are you trying to make? It’s not ok for him to rape people but you won’t judge him for it? Got it.
Unfortunately, it doesnt matter how much good you’ve done. People love witch hunts. Whether this is his worst decision or not, it’s one decision, now the rest are erased.
He’s done good and would continue to, but people are happier if he is never heard from again rather than him helping kids for the rest of his life.
I don’t get what they were thinking, how could they write a character letter for a convinced rapist? “Ya but he never raped us!”
Someone in a comment a few days ago, who was themselves asked to write such a letter for someone they knew who was charged and ultimately convicted, made an excellent observation:
Defense attorneys are very likely to have requested those character reference letters way before the case even made it to trial. So it’s entirely possible that Kutcher and Kunis wrote those letters long ago, based on information they had at the time, probably thinking the charges were unfounded.
Now, obviously, the easy solution to that would be if they were to come out now and tell whether that happened or not, and make clear what they think now. Which is what I would do, but I’m also not a Hollywoo celebrity with publicists and handlers and lawyers.
I saw that comment too. It shed a lot of light on a topic that I personally don’t know much about.
On the other hand, sometimes people can get weird about sticking up for their friends under any circumstances. My parents and brother are weird that way. One example - they know a rich white kid who killed an entire family by driving drunk. The kid’s own family disowned him. They didn’t help with his legal support, his twin brother cut ties with anyone who supported him, and he did time in the state prison. I don’t know the details about the crime, but he had graduated from a flagship state university and was from a very wealthy family. Not “paid for a wing at the local hospital wealthy” but definitely, “has a regulation size basketball court in their basement” wealthy. He absolutely fit the profile of Brock Allen Turner (the rapist).
He still got 5-10 years in state. It must have been bad. My family stepped up to support this asshole.
My brother routinely visited him in prison and gave him a job when he got out. I don’t really fault my brother for that. (OK - I judge him a bit. The kid was always an asshole and he killed people. But he did his time.)
On the other hand, my parents have nothing but good things to say about this guy and generally act like he was the victim of a huge conspiracy by the state. They were also offended that their own personal friend “Stanley” was sent to old people prison (nursing home) for “no reason” after he threatened to shoot his nephew. It was a credible threat, too. Stan is very well armed and had been going off his rocker for more than a few years.
tl/dr - my family are assholes but if they decide you’re a ride or die friend it doesn’t matter what you’ve done
This makes sense and it’s kind of what I thought has happened. No one could really be that unaware as to write a character reference for someone convicted and not expect backlash. But why wouldn’t they just say that then ? Why not make a statement saying the reference was old, and they’re shocked and disappointed someone they trusted could do such a thing.
That’s what I don’t understand
I’m sure that’s not what was in his letter.
If your question is merely about public relations, sure it’s a terrible move. But I think there’s actually a more meaningful question underlying all this furor; what are the limits of friendship or love? What is one supposed to do when someone close does something horrible? Cast them aside? Pretend you never knew them?
Kutcher must have had some idea of the risk he was taking, but he did it anyway. I find that striking. For some people friendships can be like family. I feel like this is an older sentiment that doesn’t find expression often today. Would you find it appalling if Masterson’s mother spoke on behalf of his character, or should she likewise keep her distance?
I don’t know. It all just seems more complicated and tragic than the typical social media mob can process.
If Masterson’s mother ran a non-profit that helped rape victims it would be a conflict of interest for her to write a character reference for her rapist son.
As it was here for Kutcher and it damaged his reputation badly.
Otherwise appreciate your post. There are a lot of interesting questions in it about human nature.
Personally, I think the church of scientology black mailed him into writing this. That Masterson spilled some dirt to his cult.
Ashton plays an idiot on tv but I don’t think he’s that dumb in real life. So my bet is blackmail.
I knew a guy, generally a good guy, and he helped me out when I was young.
Anyways, he made some bad choices (namely cheating on his fiance with his childhood bestie), knocked said girl up, they got married… they had another kid… a few years later this relationship turned sour, and I was rarely hearing from him. I later learned he was living out of his car at times.
At one point during this mess he told me his soon to be ex wife invited him over one night, they slept together, then he woke up with the cops in his face and her accusing him of raping her last night.
I didn’t know what to think of it at the time, and I still don’t. The person I thought I knew never would’ve cheated on his fiance… surely he wouldn’t have raped someone.
Unlike this story, the charges for the guy I know were dropped and he wasn’t prosecuted, let alone convicted. Maybe it was just a ploy for a better outcome in the divorce? That seems to be the conclusion the police drew. If it had gone to trial and he’d been convicted… I probably wouldn’t have written a similar letter? But also maybe it would’ve been in some ways good for the judge to see not just this person at their worst moments but at better moments? What if the evidence wasn’t strong? What if I hadn’t followed the case closely?
I haven’t heard from this guy in years at this point, hence why I’m avoiding the word friend. However at one point, he was a friend … and I don’t find it so easy to reconcile the “person you know” with the “person you’ve been told you know”
I think it’s more about that difficulty reconciling, than “he never raped me.” If they weren’t lying in their letters as well… maybe this should just be considered part of the process? Like, yes Masterson committed the crime, now who else was he? Did he contribute nothing to society except for being a vicious Hollywood predator? etc.
The scientology thing adds a whole other angle here…
Anyways, the point is it’s easy to not understand why someone would do something, but that doesn’t mean it’s not understandable (it doesn’t mean it’s justified either).
Fuck websites that make the video follow you while you scroll.
Well, it is not as much as a “non profit fighting human trafficking” as they sell it. It is a tech org that sells facial recognition technology to law enforcement, that doesn’t really help saving kids, but rather persecute consensual and voluntary sex workers.
It is what happens when tech Bros want to try and save the world without really listening to the vulnerable people they are trying to “help”.
Now his hypocrisy was exposed for defending a convicted rapist because “he was nice to me” no shit Ashton, im sure Epstein was also nice to his friends.
that doesn’t really help saving kids, but rather persecute consensual and voluntary sex workers.
I’d love a citation on this if you’ve got it.
Listen to a recent episode about it from the podcast There’s No Girl On The Internet.
Here’s some sources too.
Sex, lies, and surveillance: Something’s wrong with the war on sex trafficking: https://www.engadget.com/2019-05-31-sex-lies-and-surveillance-fosta-privacy.html
Real Men Get Their Facts Straight: https://www.villagevoice.com/real-men-get-their-facts-straight/
Ashton Kutcher Claims He Helped Cops Save Way More Sex-Trafficking Victims Than Authorities Say They’ve Found: https://reason.com/2017/02/15/ashton-kutcher-plays-sex-worker-savior/
The bogus claim that 300,000 U.S. children are ‘at risk’ of sexual exploitation: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/05/28/the-bogus-claim-that-300000-u-s-children-are-at-risk-of-sexual-exploitation/
SEX TRAFFICKING Online Platforms and Federal Prosecutions : chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-21-385.pdf
What it is just used for prosecuting adult non-trafficed sex workers?? That’s such a ridiculous perversion of the original mission statement, what a piece of shit. “Helping” sex workers by making them go to prison lol, which is the same way police “help” people with substance abuse problems. He was also an investor in Uber so it’s adds up that he only cares for making money.
