ALT TEXT:
- Panel 1: A person with the text “Singular ‘they’” written on them smiling with open arms.
- Panel 2: “Singular ‘They’” beaten up by others who said, “Singular they is ungrammatical. It’s too confusing,” “How can anyone use plural pronouns for singular,” and “Every pronoun should only have one purpose.”
- Panel 3: “You” hiding from the mob who was beating “Singular ‘They’”
- Panel 4: “German ‘Sie’” hiding with even more fear next to “You”
I have normally used “they, their and them” when referring to a singular person for about twenty years because I thought that “he/she” and “his/hers” looked ridiculous in emails.
For example; “Next time the engineer feels like he/she needs to overhaul the code…” versus “Next time the engineer feels like they need to overhaul the code…”. Clean and simple.
Example of current use:
Bob - “Hey Jo, Frank thinks we should tweak widget X.”
Me - “Yeah well, they don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about.”
I don’t think that sounds weird.
Singular they sometimes works and sometimes it sounds odd. It usually sounds off when used by itself without following something explicitly singular.
“The customer forgot their wallet. Can you bring it to them?” sounds correct but if you just do
“They forgot to pay their bill” it sounds like you’re referring to multiple people instead of a singular person.
Edit: Changed to a better example.
“They left their wallet on the table” it sounds like you’re referring to multiple people instead of a singular person.
Does it? If multiple people left multiple wallets on the table, it would be, “They left their wallets on the table.” Multiple people can’t really leave a single wallet behind. Or at least that would be very unusual and unintuitive.
I honestly have never understood why people take the effort to write he/she instead of singular they? Like it’s 2 words instead of 1, why bother? Even in academic articles which typically have word count limits lol
Not an expert, but I’ve followed the growth of this word a little on-and-off.
Disambiguity can be important in a language. But it’s complicated. Many times we use “he”, “she”, or “he/she”, gender is not required. Back in the 1800’s, the standard was to use “he” when gender was uncertain, unimportant, or ambiguous to a conversation. Obviously it had to do with the presumed defaultness of the male gender.
For a while, people toyed with “it” or “which”. Honestly, my personal feeling is that it was the way insult could easily be taken (or given) with “it” that it died out.
“They” probably should not be used in cases a less ambiguous word is more appropriate… But that’s when the bigots come out. In most cases, the most appropriate word to reference a person is that person’s preferred pronoun if you know it, even if it’s a genderfluid pronoun. Why? It’s significantly more descriptive than “him” or “her”. But these same people who consider “they” too general would break down to acknowledge any person having a gender identity different from their birth sex (and probably their genital birth sex for intersex folks, at that).
What all the offense is REALLY about is that they want to pretend some people are fiction, or subhuman. I think “it” would settle well with those folks. Which is why I’m glad that isn’t a default.
In German, there is no singular they, so enbies often have to use “it”. Fun times, really.
If I have to write a he/she, I usually write it as “(s)he”, but I usually avoid that too, because to me it seems like I assume a male, but maybe female, which defacto puts an implication on the term that women are not as good as, or equal to their male counterparts.
The whole thing is ridiculous.
The only argument I’ve ever heard from anyone about why they don’t want to use “they” as a singular pronoun is that it feels wrong, or that it’s a plural pronoun (which it is not, and never has been). Neither argument is valid IMO, and the entire practice shifts the discomfort of the chosen pronoun from listener to speaker or vice-versa, depending on the situation. If someone wants you to use the pronouns they/them, and you have any respect for them at all, you’ll do it, and suffer that discomfort for their benefit.
Lots of people talk past each other on this. Singular they to refer to a known single person is an invention of the last few years and is the thing that a lot of people are up in arms about. It gets confused with the centuries-old usage of using it to refer to an unknown or undetermined person. Your first example is in line with the latter, and your second example is the new usage. TBH I’d be confused by your second example. Is Frank part of some larger group that doesn’t know what they’re talking about? Or is it only Frank that doesn’t know what he’s talking about?
No, it’s been used for at least 400 years.
It’s actually even older than that though. It’s over 600 years.
https://nyulocal.com/shakespeare-used-the-singular-they-and-so-should-you-6452240ca9e0
Your confusion here is exactly what I’m trying to clear up. We know the gender of the person in the Shakespeare quote you linked to (“man”), but nothing else. It’s a placeholder term that doesn’t refer to a specific, known individual. Shakespeare never said anything like “Here’s Frank, they’re a cool guy”, that would be considered ungrammatical until a few years ago.
It’s not a thing of the last few years I’ve been using it for at least a decade.
To be clear, this example, where the singular they is used for a person of any gender, is confusing to you.
Example of current use:
Bob - “Hey Jo, Frank thinks we should tweak widget X.”
Me - “Yeah well, they don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about.”
Is Frank part of some larger group that doesn’t know what they’re talking about? Or is it only Frank that doesn’t know what he’s talking about?
Based on the above questions, the confusion is about attempting to identify if the singular they or plural they is being used.
But these variants with a person with an ungendered name or description are fine. Example with ungendered name:
Bob - “Hey Jo, Kelly thinks we should tweak widget X.”
Me - “Yeah well, they don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about.”
Example with ungendered description:
Bob - “Hey Jo, the engineer thinks we should tweak widget X.”
Me - “Yeah well, they don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about.”
If that is true, that the second and third examples are not confusing, then determining whether the singular they or the plural they is being used is not the source of the confusion. As in all three examples, we have a person who was previously referenced excluding the possibility of the plural they. In the first example Frank, in the second Kelly, and the third the engineer. All that has changed in the first example is that the singular they has no restrictions based on name or description. If that grammatical distinction is the source of the confusion, so be it, but let’s be clear on what the confusion is.
Source I used to unpick this, specifically the first table in section 3: https://www.glossa-journal.org/article/id/5288/
The root of the problem is that it’s an indirect reference to an individual. They/them is commonly (until very recently) referring to a party (singular or plural) that isn’t present. When you use it as a direct reference to someone who is present, most people feel like it’s incorrect because of the common usage of the term being indirect.
When speaking to someone about Joe: “Joe doesn’t know what they’re talking about” While directly: “Joe, you don’t know what you’re talking about”
Both are correct, and possibly the most correct forms of the statements. Substitute Joe for whatever name and it still works. Meanwhile, it’s uncommon, in Joe’s presence, when not taking to Joe, to refer to (assuming Joe is using gendered pronouns) him as a he/him. “Joe doesn’t know what he’s talking about”
Both cases are singular, but the difference of Joe being there changes “they” to “he”, and not taking directly to Joe changes “you” to “he”.
The problem isn’t plural vs singular, the problem is direct vs indirect reference.
Your Kelly example is similarly confusing. The “engineer” example is also confusing, but because English already conflates those two meanings, I at least know that I’m parsing a confusable sentence and can pick up on context clues.
If I were writing that, I’d say “Yeah well, that engineer don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about.” The “they’re” is then not confusing at all.
Yep. Using “they” and “them” as singular pronouns is actually really common, but in it’s (until very recently) common usage, it’s usually an indirect singular pronoun, rather than a direct one.
I’m no linguist, so my terms may be a bit off, but when referring to a single person, or multiple people indirectly (without them involved in the conversation directly and/or, not talking directly to them). So for example, Joe went to fix the thing, and someone asks if the thing is being worked on… Yeah, Joe is on it, they will get it fixed.
That’s normal.
The pinch for most people, that they can’t seem to grasp, is that many seem to believe, whether they consciously realize it or not, that referring to someone as a “they” or a “them” directly is usually considered … For lack of a better term, rude. In the same vein as calling someone by their name but getting their name wrong. It’s impersonal which comes off, in their mind as insulting.
I’ll give you an example, Frank just did a stupid. While standing in a group with Joe and Frank, Joe says, “then they decided to do the stupid.”
Same with “they did it!” While accusing a singular individual.
The reason people don’t like calling someone “they” and “them” is because on some level, they realize that the language is either dismissive or accusatory of the individual in question. Akin to calling someone stupid or using an undesirable nickname for someone, like referring to them by their race, or doing so via a racial slur; this example is a bit extreme, but you get the idea.
There’s an absolute fuckload of examples of using they/them as singular pronouns, but people are still uncomfortable with it, often feeling like it’s wrong to refer to someone like that without really understanding why; and because they don’t understand why, they’ll never intellectually move past the taboo of it.
Non-binary people have reclaimed the word as their own, and have asked the rest of us who are comfortable with our gendered pronouns, to use these words as their pronouns. So while it feels wrong/insulting to do it, it’s actually insulting not to.
In German, the whole thing is another level worse because we don’t have something such as the sigular they, since our 3rd person plural is already a third person singular pronoun too, the female one, so enbies either use custom neopronouns or the third person neutrum, in English that would be “it”. And “it” is only used tor refer to objects, animals or monsters usually, so it feels like a whole other level of disrepect. I wish we had something as easy as the singular they. The latter is usually disrespectful but the former is usually dehumanizing and not even used for people you like, but only people you see as subhuman.
If you think gender neutrality in English is bad you should see other languages. Know steward/stewardess? In German almost every single profession is gendered like that. The solutions are constructs such as steward or stewardess, steward/ess, steward*ess, steward:ess (my favourite), stewardEss, steward_ess, the stewarding, and more. They aren’t standardised. Oh and did I mention all singular pronouns are gendered, so its actually the steward or the stewardess, the/the(f) steward/-ess, …?
Not to mention this applies to plural froms too, historyically the male form was used for mixed and all-male groups, and the female one for female-only ones, but in many cases that leads to people only picturing the male version, especially in historically male fields. Same for the singular version when the gender is unspecified. And these versions still dont include nonbinary persons, or those who use neopronouns here. The latter aren’t much of a thing here, you are pressed to have anything gender neutral in language.
All of this doesn’t improve readability, “Liebe Mitbürger” (fellow citizens) becomes “Liebe Mitbürger und Mitbürgerinnen, und auch alle anderen” (dear citizens and citizens(f), and all the others too); “Der Fahrer bremst sein Fahrzeug” (the driver slows down his vehicle) becomes “Der/Die Fahrer/in bremst sein/ihr Fahrzeug” (the/the(f) driver/ess brakes his/her vehicle); “die Wissenschaftler befrageten Taxi- und Busfahrer. Jede einzelne Teilnehmer” (the scientists surveyed taxi and bus drivers. Every single participant) becomes “die Wissenschaftlerinnen befragten Taxi- und Busfahrerinnen. Jeder einzelne Teilnehmerin” (the scinetistesses surveyed taxi and bus driveresses. Every*(m) single participant*ess).
German schools try to avoid having to write out “Schüler und Schülerinnen” (students and studentesses) by abbreviating it to SuS, but that has its own issues as you can guess, Among Us was very popular here in Germany too, every student knows memes, and often hangs in online spaces. The teacher equivalent would be LuL, they didn’t even attempt that one. Can sound funny but is reality here, sadly until a few decades pass at least, if not much more. This is hard to change. And many hang onto the language, I love it too, more than English since its my own I think in still, I read books in etc. This will need a lot of energy to change somewhere reasonable. And it makes texts much longer in German compared to English, as it wasn’t egregious enough already, “the vehicle owners” ( as used in legal documents/law ) becomes "Der/Die Kraftfahrzeugeigentümer*innnen " . This is not very readable at all, especially to foreigners, and fucks up submenus in programs as well as a lot of other formatting. We can’t even dream of integrating nonbinary people into these expressions too at the moment yet now here, it is insanely compliated to get somewhere.
Its an absolute shitfest. English they/them is a piece of cake against that, and the poeple who still cry that much about it are oversensitive whiny bitches. In Germany they at least have some practical justifications, albeit I think the use outweighs the downsides, but I see some points. I will continue to use these so-called “gendered” expressions, and they are now recommended for scientific publications, but there is a whole culture war about that, and applying it to spoken language is a whole different level. Don’t get me started on dialects. The entire issue is so much fucked here - the gender-neutrality is what I love about English. Its one of its big adavantages. Cherish what you have already out there, its not a given. You are lucky for that situation. Be thankful for it. It is a great help.
I just don’t get it, even before being aware of pronouns and such I used singular they all the time, e.g. “That’s what they did” (referring to one person) or “They’re thinking that aren’t they?”
It’s because there isn’t actually confusion about this. This is transphobes making up something to be angry and confused about in order to rope in the ignorant to harass trans people. It’s not acceptable to say “trans people are bad, we should ostracize them” currently. So transphobes find something that could be confusing (nonbinary people using they/them) and convince ignorant people (people who don’t know much about trans people and/or have no opinion) that it’s confusing and wrong and people should “correct” them. Then you get ignorant people saying things like “they isn’t singular” or “I can’t get used to they/them and don’t like using it.” This creates a continuous debate on if trans people deserve to self-identify and generates constant micro-aggressions (or just full aggressions) against their entire community.
It’s really just a way for transphobes to create a hostile environment for trans people over literally nothing.
Your comment makes it clear there is confusion. To clear it up, using singular they to refer to a specific, known individual is never something Shakespeare did, and is a recent invention. It’s not transphobic to be grumpy about people trying to introduce a new usage for an existing word. People as a whole don’t like change.
Yeah, but you’re using it to mean “I don’t know which pronoun to use.” This is a different meaning than what’s being describes here.
What’s being described here is a person who decided that they don’t want to be referred to as he or she, and has chosen to make themselves plural instead of using the singular nongendered pronoun already present in English.
Since that is a grammatical error, and this is the internet, I am obligated to ridicule this person, regardless of how well their meaning is conveyed.
/s, by the way.
“instead of using the singular nongendered pronoun already present in English.”
Lmao. That shoulda given away the /s right there.
But uh, I think the pronoun you’re talking about there is “they.” 😜
Actually, I was referring to ‘it.’
People don’t like using it for people, because it’s traditionally only really used for objects (“It’s a chair!” ) or creatures where the gender isn’t identifiable or doesn’t matter (“It’s a bear!”) , but that’s the exact use case here.
A nonbinary person is a creature whose gender is either not identifiable or doesn’t matter.
People just decided that it meant nonbinary people were objects, when in reality we use it for objects because they were the only truly nonbinary concepts we had.
So, to explain the German „sie/Sie“, it can be used as one of the following:
-
formal version of both singular and plural you: used whenever you have or want to maintain a distance from someone, or with persons who demand respect/authority. Generally speaking, whenever you would say Mr/Mrs/Ms it’s „Sie“, if you’re on first name terms it’s „Du“. Fun fact: addressing an LEO, judge, etc. informally („Du“) is considered an insult, insulting someone is a misdemeanour (not kidding) in Germany, and you will usually be fined on the spot for doing so.
-
Used to reference a woman/girl who has been mentioned before: What about Sally, is she coming today?
-
Same as above but for inanimate objects or animals that are gendered female: Have you seen my camera, I have misplaced her. Look at the cat, she’s so cute. (In this case it’s a cat of either female or unknown gender, if you were talking about a male cat specifically, you’d use the male version of „cat“…)
-
Same as above, but for all groups of people, animals, objects, regardless of gender, like plural they: Look at the guys/nuns/politicians/cats/helicopters, they’re drunk as fuck!
Great language, isn’t it.
Fun fact correction: if you happen to be Dieter Bohlen you are legally allowed to informally address everyone, including cops, and won’t be fined.
In a nutshell, it’s like English’s they (plural animate or inanimate), it (for feminine objects, remember that german is a gendered language like french) she, and you (both singular and plural) combined.
Though, Sie meaning “you” is the polite version, used to address someone politely. For informal situations, there’s the impolite and always-singular “Du”
While there are different conjugations and capitalization between the different uses of Sie, in the end they all use the same word.
It’s not about politeness.
If you’re on first name terms, it’s extremely rude to switch back to the formal address. Like, „FYI whatever our relationship was, I just burned that“ rude.
And more and more, people who don’t know each other immediately skip the formal part. I personally find „Sie“ rude, and I’m using it only for people I don’t like.
What’s funny about those “grammar purist” people is singular “they” has been accepted common use in English for centuries, even older than singular “you”. For some reason society got it in our collective heads in the fairly recent past that it was improper grammar, though, and that’s what teachers often teach. I’m still not over my 5th grade teacher marking me down a point on an essay because I used singular “they”. You’re still wrong, Mrs. B.
Like many things, the damage was done by the British. Specifically one Bishop Robert Lowth. In 1762, he wrote a book of prescriptivist grammar rules starting with the premise that Latin is a perfect language, and any construction in English that doesn’t match Latin is a flaw. This is where those nonsense rules like “never end a sentence with a preposition” and “never split infinitives” come from, as well as the claim that the singular they (in common use at the time) should be phased out in favor of the generic he, because that’s what Latin does. The damage this one book did to the English language still has not been fully repaired.
As somebody whose primary language is Dutch, the lack of an explicit plural “you” is one of the worst things.
If I’m talking to somebody, I can’t nicely refer to a group they are part of, because “you” means they themself specifically, “y’all” makes me feel like engineer TF2, and “you people” sounds condescending.
