Let me know if this is appropriate for this community.
I’ve been collecting links to post, blog, article, comment, etc that criticize the fediverse, whether it’s about the specific apps or fediverse in general, whether it’s about the technical aspect or about the social aspect.
If you also found one, feel free to share it here.
(date format is YYYY-MM-DD)
2024
- https://lemmy.world/post/11519703 - Lemmy is a bigger echo chamber than reddit, 2024-02-03
- https://lemmy.world/post/11720592 - Lemmy users lack nuace and it stops actual discussion., 2024-02-08
- https://lemmy.world/post/12352000 - Lemmy is not immune to trolls, bad fait actors or propaganda - in fact, despite how bad reddit is, a lot of Lemmy instances are worse, 2024-02-24
- https://wedistribute.org/2024/02/tear-down-walls-not-bridges/ - Tear Down Walls, and Build Bridges, 2024-02-13
- https://wedistribute.org/2024/03/contentnation-mastodons-toxicity/ - Content Nation Backlash Highlights Mastodon’s Toxicity, 2024-03-02
- https://reddit.com/r/fediverse/comments/1b76cbo/fediverse_is_not_so_good/ - Fediverse is not so good…, 2024-03-05
- https://kevquirk.com/blog/linux-elitism-again - Linux Elitism…Again, 2024-04-14
- https://www.reddit.com/r/Mastodon/comments/1g1g844/why_is_mastodon_struggling_to_survive - Why is Mastodon struggling to survive?, 2024-10-12
- https://lemmy.world/post/19004972 - Lemmy wouldn’t really takeoff to replace Reddit until it’s content is search indexable, 2024-08-24
- https://evergreenfiles.com/blogs/the-fediverse-desperately-needs-sustainable-file-hosting - The Fediverse Desperately Needs Sustainable File Hosting, 2024-11-04
- https://lemmy.world/post/22316287 - I really want to like Lemmy, 2024-11-22
- https://bsky.app/profile/techconnectify.bsky.social/post/3lbs4ihb2gs24 - Technology Connection’s thread on Bluesky about Mastodon being a ghost town and more, 2024-11-26
- https://transfem.social/notes/a16rvjhkk34b00tf - […] if you are explaining the fediverse to a non-tech person, “it’s like email” is not a sufficient explanyation., 2024-11-30
2023
- https://pawb.social/post/42756 - “Tanky” and the perception of Lemmy., 2023-06-14
- https://erinkissane.com/mastodon-is-easy-and-fun-except-when-it-isnt - Mastodon Is Easy and Fun Except When It Isn’t - Erin Kissane’s small internet website, 2023-07
- https://lemm.ee/post/873456 - I miss reddit, 2023-07-09
- https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/16zq1dd/the_lemmyverse_aint_all_its_cracked_up_to_be/ - The Lemmyverse ain’t all it’s cracked up to be, 2023-10-04
Hello,
I mostly had a look at the Lemmy posts, seems like most of them are 10 months - 1 year old. Lemmy has evolved a lot since then, user-level instance muting was a big change for instance.
The most active communities being on other instances than .ml is also a notable change.
From my experience, some of the things got way worse
There is american politics on completely unrelated posts and “memes” that are just statements about how capitalism is bad on meme communities
There is american politics on completely unrelated posts and “memes” that are just statements about how capitalism is bad on meme communities
If that’s a shared feeling, at some point someone will create “actual memes” community and it will take over
Though, I think a lot has stayed the same. I regularly read the same complaints that have been brought up over and over again for a long time now. I’m not sure if the UI, or moderation woes, or the atmosphere, or the size, or amount of argumentative people have changed substantially.
That’s a minority opinion. I’ve brought that up before and been pointed at the Changelog and told lots of things have changed. It just doesn’t feel that way for me.
UI
Which one? With the variety of front ends and mobile apps, experiences can be very different
moderation woes
Power tripper get regularly called out on !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com for a few months
atmosphere argumentative people
Very community dependant
Yeah, I (or we) have solved those issues for us. Or found workarounds. I’m not sure if that translates to the regular user, though. I guess most people are using some mobile apps anyways. So UI issues are an entirely different story.
And posting to the drama communities mostly adds drama here. It doesn’t make it any better.
I agree, all of this is very community and instance dependant. I didn’t address OP’s links directly. But that’s the reason why I’d dismiss a lot of them. For example if you’re reading the “All” feed, and then go ahead to complain it’s too much Linux news… That’s just stupid. Or if you’re on lemmy.world and complain about their moderation policies. We all know how the dynamics are. Or if you’re on lemmy.ml doing anything…
Which one? With the variety of front ends and mobile apps, experiences can be very different
Unfortunately, this basically translates to “if you know the secret handshake, you can make it better”. New users don’t know the handshake, and more casual users aren’t going to bother looking for instructions on how to do it. They already struggle with the idea of there being different URLs.
Which is a significant UI issue, as well. The most popular web servers leveraging ActivityPub continue to ape the visual form of centralized social media, which communicates to users that they work like centralized social media. But they don’t. Form follows function, and therefore form implies function. This is a significant source of the friction new users experience.
Remember, most new users are neither broken glass rejectors of some other website, nor are they ideologues. They’re just trying something new out, to see if it’s better than what they already have.
And the fediverse, point blank, is not. Mastodon is not better at being Twitter than Xitter or Bluesky. Lemmy is not better at being Reddit than Reddit. But they both look like they’re trying to be Twitters or Reddits. The result is that this place looks like the wish-dot-com version of the big players.
Power tripper get regularly called out on !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com for a few months
Power tripping occurs everywhere. The bigger issue is that because the fediverse is trying to pretend it’s just like centralized social media, moderation issues can appear a lot different here. For one, they tend to play out much more publicly, because a lot of them occur at the site admin level. For another, the idea of defederation is alien to centralized social media users, and the idea that they could be cut off from the people or communities they follow due to no fault of their own feels incredibly unjust. Even if the reason for defederation is totally understandable, the admins have followed a robust procedure, and alternatives have been tried, it still feels arbitrary to someone who’s not involved.
But that’s again a concern of significance because everyone wants to make believe this space is just like centralized social media. That the differences are superficial, and not backed into the very core of the experience. It’s also, in part, due to the limited range of moderation features currently explored. We mostly still have moderation suites that make the most sense in… wait for it… centralized settings.
This comes across as highly biased - perhaps you could make another post like this, where people sing the praises of the Fediverse? Not in terms of promises but the reality of actual experiences? And then link it here and vice versa, to give people a more accurate take of both Pros and Cons.
Overall some things do seem to be getting better. Not quickly, or even sufficiently, but inexorably it does seem to be happening. Although it also gets worse too in other ways so… I’m not sure what to say about the overall situation.
Personally, I’m going to start blocking more communities, which I find very sad bc I used to greatly enjoy those very same ones.:-(
Would be nice if you could sort these by date.
Ye, but it’s good to know that some are opinions that are 1 year+ old. I Would personally separate the articles in 1+ years old, and the rest.
Noted, moved posts made in 2024 to the top
I still think that most of the posts from 2023 is applicable now
Should I cross post this to !fediverse@lemmy.world?
Kinda regret doing it, the post is very biased
What was I thinking making this post
It’s not too late to turn things around and pretend it was a joke
Regarding UI/UX, that’s definitely a major issue. UI will improve, but the nature of instances/federation will always be a stumbling block. The only thing I can think of is recommending people join lemmy.world (because lemm.ee doesn’t block hexbear/lemmygrad by default, lemmy.cafe could also be an option if it gets bigger more/mature). There is also a need for on-boarding and something akin to starter packs with active communities. Lemmy community search return a community with most subs, but that’s not always the one that’s most active.
The presence of tankies is a major turn off for me personally. Even if you block hexbear/lemmygrad, you still get ML users and even lemmy.world users who spout things like “the USSR’s invasion of Europe in collaboration with nazi Germany was a good thing!” Major instances really need to adopt a “no tankie” rule and some of the active software communities need to migrate off ML.
Many admins are unprofessional. I personally got into a debate with a (US-based?) admin of major instance that started with him calling posters in that thread “shit eating lemmings who don’t understand anything” for being skeptical of the US judicial system. I am not from the US, but I have lived there. I made a snarky remark (while clearly stating that I am from a different country) referencing some of my own experiences living in the US. We got into a debate, I did not find his arguments convincing. We were going in circles I asked him what exactly does he want me to admit or say. He replied that I need to say that “I am stupid, I am wrong and that he is right”. I told him to fuck off and that he is a shit eating lemming. This not how an admin should act (even if he thinks I am wrong/ignorant).
I’ve also seen examples of admins of major instances being unprofessional and tolerating and encouraging mods acting in a very biased manner.
I can see how the capitalism stuff can be off-putting for many people. Personally I don’t see it that often (more than on reddit of course). I would say there are certain advantages to this tendency as well. I moderate a technology hardware community. I really like how people appreciate technology, but still take a critical look at all tech companies. Even the Apple community on lemmy is level-headed. Reddit is rife with corporate shills doing volunteer PR work. Any criticism of Apple (even legitimate criticism like saying they cannot be trusted because they censored content critical of China and AI on Apple+) gets instant downvotes (not even on the Apple subs).
The issue that I see is that people don’t distinguish between “big C Capitalism” - American-style PR-focused oligarchy, corruption and criminality and “small c capitalism” - commerce, trade, competition. “Small c capitalism” has existed for thousands of years and will continue to exist after american-style corruption runs its course.
All people need to do is replace the word “capitalism” with “oligarchy”; I think this would go a long way to making their discourse more acceptable to least some percentage of the wider community of social media users (not all, or even most). Easier said than done of course.
I do agree there are massive problems with the Threadiverse/Fediverse. Some of them, like the lack of professionalism, software immaturity, lack of growth/on-boarding strategy can only be addressed with a serious budget. Others (like the abrasive, counterproductive, anti-capitalist sentiment) are arguably out of scope for a mere social network/forum.
That being said, what other alternatives are there? Threads/Zuckerberg is no go. He is downright evil; just another tech oligarch. I wish BlueSky all the best, but I do think they will eventually speedrun into a Twitter/X. I hope I am wrong. So even with all of the Fediverse’s problems, what is a viable next step if you don’t want to deal with FB/Reddit/Twitter and are skeptical about the long-term viability of BlueSky as a user-focused platform?
PieFed has some interesting ideas.
It’s not yet a full-featured Lemmy alternative (more’s the pity), yet it already has so many features that Lemmy lacks and so I’ve made PieFed.social my daily driver for the Fediverse (although most moderation activities don’t seem to be implemented yet so atm it survives by piggybacking off of made on Lemmy; and the search function isn’t that great - really I still need a Lemmy account for some activities).
e.g. you can block all users from any instances you care to without needing admin approval (the Sync and Connect Lemmy apps also do that but the traditional Lemmy “instance block” is horribly misnamed and acts rather like a community mute, though the users can still invade other threads and reply to you, triggering your notifications, etc.), and onboarding is greatly facilitated by offering Categories of Communities. And there’s so much more - hashtags, YouTube embedding, the ability to either enable or disable notifications for anything (post, comment, user, entire community - that one I really love 💕!), etc.
I love how the link explains how we can move more towards a democratization of moderation, where instead of offering simply the binary Allow vs. Deny action by a moderator, a community could place 'labels" onto its content, thereby leaving the decision whether to read it or not up to the end user. An account created in the last week asking questions? They are new and may need help. Someone who has more moderator-removed posts than ones allowed to stay up? Probably a troll. A comment with >20 downvotes (hey, it has happened to me - multiple times, especially a post linking to an article examining the merits of Biden stepping down prior to the election, right or wrong that content was among the most heavily downvoted that the recipient community has ever seen before…), someone who wants to see it can, while someone who desires a less controversial experience can filter it out.
Ofc the approach would need heavy tuning to make it work best - e.g. could a bunch of bot accounts merely be spun up to heavily promote content? What about people who see the content having arrived there by browsing All - perhaps only votes by community members should count? Perhaps even restricting the latter to “established” or even only “trusted” ones? And then what would be needed to gain such “citizenship” - a certain number of posts, comments, time, approval, perhaps moderator-granted status? The possibilities are endless and each instance spun up could do it differently, but the framework is there to take advantage.
Despite me as an early adopter making it my daily driver, it’s not really ready for the masses yet - there is so much that is still too frustrating. But damn is it impressive! Check it out even just to have a hint of what will be coming in the future. Oh yeah, the codebase is in Python rather than Rust, so I expect a much more rapid development cycle - despite lacking the funding that Lemmy has, although PieFed does have a ways yet to catch up in terms of the fundamentals, and yet it’s still just that impressive!
Thanks for sharing the link, will need to have a read.
I’ve been meaning to try out Piefed, but honestly I am waiting for it to become a bit more mature.
Can’t hurt to make an alt just to test it out though.
The ability to not only have different UIs, but even different approach is a critical strength of the fediverse, although I feel it needs a critical number of DAUs (and donations) to really take off.
In terms of overall platform, I don’t really see any alternatives to the fediverse.
You can see it without an account, although ofc better with one:-). Here is an example showcasing both Categories of Communities (top line) and hashtags (bottom one of the header area). Below all the comments (here’s one with none to have to scroll through), you can see the full community side-bar, attached to every post in the community, so that you know exactly what you are getting into even while making just so much as a comment reply rather than a full post.
I agree it’s not mature though - e.g. a good fraction of the time when I click on a Notification, it refuses to take me to the content that it is trying to tell me about, for many different reasons (I’ve blocked the user, it’s been removed, or hidden, or the comment string is too deep and I have to click a continuation link to go further, except it doesn’t even take me to that, etc.) - I really have to jump around ENORMOUS gaps to make it halfway work.
And even so, it’s still damn impressive, after all is said and done. It’s exciting to think what improvements will come.:-)
People won’t move off Reddit until something is already ready for them to jump ship to. Lemmy has such enormous structural issues. PieFed has even more, but different ones.:-) Both Lemmy and PieFed are so impressive, but I am more excited about the latter for a variety of reasons, particularly that I hope it will be able to move forward more quickly.
