I was going to post this as a comment, but it was in an anarchism community, and I figured some sections of it might be unacceptable there. Hence, new post.
Here’s a guideline of how to interact with cops. There are more or less three modes, depending on your read of the situation. Cops are not always the enemy or the maniacal whole-job-is-making-evil thugs that Lemmy sometimes makes them out to be. It really is bad for people to get mugged or their cars broken into, and they’re the solution our society has come up with to minimize the amount of it that happens. It’s not always a bad thing.
If you find yourself talking to the cops, there are more or less three ways:
- They’re there to solve a real problem. Someone’s car got broken into, someone got beat up. Just talk with them. Tell them what you know, help them figure out the situation. In almost all of the US, their effect on the problem will be positive, and it’ll be a lot more positive if they have a good grasp of what happened. If, in your opinion, the person they’re trying to catch really did do something that warrants a law enforcement response, then give them a hand. Use your judgement as to whether that’s warranted of course, and your impression of the justice level in your local area, since it varies quite a lot in the US.
- They’re there for you. Shut the fuck up. Don’t say a goddamned word. It doesn’t even matter if you didn’t do it. Don’t explain. Shut the fuck up. Be polite, obey lawful orders, definitely don’t fight them or you’ll get a felony and might also get injured or worse, but tell them that if you’re suspected of a crime, then you’d like to talk to a lawyer, and you have nothing else to say. And then, shut the fuck up and cooperate. Maybe you want to go as far as “Were you shoplifting?” “What? No. That wasn’t me, man.” But any further explanation than that, just leave it alone. Definitely don’t make something up on the spot, to make yourself sound innocent, if you did do it. For the love of God, don’t do that.
- They’re there for someone who didn’t do anything wrong. The reason for this post is, anything and everything with ICE and immigration falls into this category. Some things with local cops will, also. Just be unhelpful and simple. No, I didn’t see anything. I don’t know. I’m not sure. Be vague. Don’t get creative, keep it simple, don’t refuse to give your ID or otherwise antagonize them or commit minor crimes of obstruction, but just do your best imitation of someone who just fell from the sky. “So you’ve NEVER MET your neighbor. Your neighbor across the hall.” “Nope.” “Are you sure?” “Yeah, I don’t know.” “I mean, she gave us your name, she said she’d talked to you.” “I don’t know, I don’t remember that.” Don’t embellish. Don’t explain why. Just calmly let the silence linger and the pressure build up, without adding extra words.
Like I said, everything with ICE or other immigration authorities falls into the third category. No exceptions. Everything. The same applies with any type of federal law enforcement, I suspect, for the next few years.
Maybe you want to go as far as “Were you shoplifting?” “What? No. That wasn’t me, man.” … do your best imitation of someone who just fell from the sky. “So you’ve NEVER MET your neighbor. Your neighbor across the hall.” “Nope.” “Are you sure?” “Yeah, I don’t know.”
Wrong.
Don’t tell the cops “I don’t know” or “I didn’t see anything,” or anything of that ilk. Don’t try to plead innocence. Don’t try to use logic. It will only ever work against you, and it will never work in your favor. Always always always always.
Just tell them you exercise your right to be silent. Over and over again, if necessary. That is all you say. Be a broken record. There is no situation where you are actually obligated (in the US) to answer any type of questions for any type of law enforcement, at any time, for any reason, ever. That’s all you need to tell them. You don’t answer questions. You don’t answer why you don’t answer questions.
This is because you can also be prosecuted for lying to them, and their grounds for accusing you of lying can be pretty shaky but you still might get convicted. You can’t be prosecuted for saying nothing.
Note that this will not prevent them from lying to you, which is legal, and making spurious threats of arrest or similar to attempt to intimidate you into complying. Be aware that this is automatically bullshit. At worst the can hold you for up to 48 hours (-ish, state laws vary on that point somewhat) without charging you with anything and even if they do, you still don’t have to say anything to them.
If this happens, lawyer up immediately. You can sue them afterwards if it comes about that they violated any of your civil rights in the process.
In light of all of the above, I don’t deal with the police at all.
Name and if necessary, driver’s license. That’s it. That’s all I’m legally obligated to provide in my state, and even then only in specific circumstances. If they’re on my actual property they can pack sand; No warrant, interaction. I won’t talk to them, I won’t even answer the door. If they want to try to bust in illegally, what happens after that is on them.
I will further never, ever call the police for any reason. They simply can’t be trusted. If I have a problem with someone or something, I will solve it myself. The cops in my area have near as makes no difference to a 0% clearance rate for nuisance crimes, assault/battery, thefts, and burglaries anyway. Unless you need a report for insurance purposes it’s useless, and at that rate I’ll have my attorney call them on my behalf. They are not in the business of helping you. So don’t even expect that they will.
TL;DR: Don’t talk to the police.
This is correct answer, never speak to the police. They can and will use anything you say and try to make you guilty of SOMETHING.
…And even if you are not the perpetrator, that doesn’t matter. The police are pressured to arrest somebody. At the end of the day it really doesn’t matter to them who it is, and the perp got a way while in the meantime you’re standing right here. It’s much easier to harass you.
Do you have warrants? Are you sure? Do you have parking tickets? Is your name similar to someone else they want for something else? Do they smell weed? Are you black? Etc., etc., etc.
It’s not worth it. Don’t interact.
And even if you are not the perpetrator, that doesn’t matter. The police are pressured to arrest somebody.
This part, I definitely know is wrong. Some cops do have a particular stick up their ass about liking to arrest people for marginal reasons. The majority of cops, in any given interaction, dislike arresting people, because it’s paperwork, and they get paid the same either way. They’re not looking to arrest some random person if they can’t find the actual perpetrator. With very rare and corrupt exceptions, it’ll wind up being a massive waste of resources when they have to be released, or go to trial and get off because there is literally 0 evidence, and if someone shows a consistent pattern of that, it’ll be a problem.
Is your name similar to someone else they want for something else?
I used to think that you lived in a part of the US where the cops are bad, and we mostly just have a difference of experience. That still might be true, but I more strongly suspect now that you’re basing this on not much more than your particular set of prejudice.
Wrong.
Everyone thinks they have rights until there’s a gun in their face.
When the fascists knock on your door you do what you must to survive and never throw anyone else under the bus.
You don’t actually have the right to remain silent as pertains to other people’s crimes. You could be compelled to testify, if it comes to that, and in theory you could be prosecuted if you lie, although it’s very unlikely to happen.
There are situations where what you’re saying is accurate: Every single cop who might answer the call for service is the enemy, or you might get a really bad outcome for “snitching,” or simply stonewalling with mild hostility is better for some reason than “I don’t know her.” My advice was general advice for most of the US, not applicable to every situation someone might find themselves in.
You can be subpoenaed to testify in court. You cannot be compelled to talk to the police.
Correct. I was mostly responding to your use of “right to remain silent” when asked about your neighbors. It just doesn’t work that way. You could go with “I don’t want to tell you” or “I don’t have to tell you,” but if you had to pick one general answer to recommend, I’m a lot more comfortable going with “I don’t know” or “I don’t remember” instead of those options.
There is no US law requiring you to talk to cops. About crimes you might have committed or witnessed. You could be forced to testify in court but never to a police officer.
Not everyone has the privilege of being able to afford a lawyer and/or time off from work. There are plenty of jobs that won’t let you interview if you’ve been arrested, even without a conviction.
If the police want to make your life miserable, it’s very easy for them to do so with no consequences. Also, when you piss off a cop, they are probably going to take it out on the next person they interact with.
On the other hand, if you follow the advice posted, you’re not going to give up any of your rights.
Yeah. They have a lot of leeway in how they deal with you, which is why I don’t recommend “I don’t answer questions” or being needlessly dickish to them. Some things, you need to draw the line, because getting arrested because they’re pissed, and then released, is a hell of a lot better than saying some stuff which can get used later on to put you away on some real charges. But in general, there’s no reason to make it a painful interaction, because they can also make it a painful interaction for you, in turn.
This is true, although you have a constitutional right to a lawyer even if you have no money.
Either way, if they want to detain and question you, that’s arrest - You’re going to jail, you’ll need to get bail which is going to be somewhere between $100 and $20,000, probably, otherwise you’re not getting out of jail.
And nothing you say to a cop from the initial contact to the day you walk out a free person is going to help you. The best it can possibly do is not make anything worse, and that’s unlikely.
The reason you have to have a lawyer is that the lawyer is supposed to know what they’re allowed to ask you and what to do to get you out. (Some lawyers aren’t as good as others, but any honest lawyer knows these basics. - or they can ask their office.)
Now, there are simple things you can do like; be cool, polite, possibly de-escalate the situation with some empathy, but if they start asking you more than one or two questions, you need to forget everything that’s ever happened ever, immediatley. You do not remember. After the third question, just shut up and shrug.
You’re not going to talk your way out of it, and they’ll take any opportunity to take any sound you’ve uttered and turn it into some other charge against you - most people get accused of five to twenty charges for the same thing so the DA can look effective and make the total jail time seem as scary as possible.
If you gave them nothing, and they have nothing, you are in the best position possible.
This is true, although you have a constitutional right to a lawyer even if you have no money.
Legal aid is overworked and underpaid. At best you’ll get a tiny portion of the lawyer’s time, and at worst they’ll throw you under the bus so they can make a deal for another client who is in a worse situation.
You sure watched that video fast.
And responded as though you didn’t watch it at all.
I guess that adds up. Cheers.
While I agree with this in theory, being a pain in the ass right off the bat isn’t going to work well a lot of the time. Answer the questions, keep it simple and respectful, address them as officer or whatever, and get on with your day. I’ve gotten out of so much shit this way. Boring is good. If you are a pain in the ass you’re going to stick out and that increases your chances of being harassed.
I used to think so after watching the video. I stumbled into watching bodycam videos on YT because they’re like reality tv but real. I now align more with OP after seeing how many of them think that asserting your rights means you’re a smartass who should be dealt with. My goal with police is to be forgotten, not to stand out.
Now, had I knowingly committed a crime, that might be very different. Fortunately, the part of my life when I had to fear police interactions (because I was committing crimes) is in the past. Not that I would invite them today. We all know some of them are sociopaths and I don’t like to gamble.
Also, never answer the question, “Do you know why I pulled you over?” with anything that sounds like an admission. They’re fishing and looking to have you confess to a traffic violation.
The honest answer is “No, I’m not sure why you pulled me over,” because it’s true. There are a million motivations they might have come up with to pull you over, and you’re neither psychic or telepathic.
There’s a really big problem with this guidance. You may be in category 2 (i.e. a suspect) and not know it. They may also retroactively place you in that category, and everything you said can now be incriminating evidence
This is a pretty valid point in general, I think. If you don’t have already a pretty firm idea that you are in scenario 1 or 3, it’s probably best to treat it as a scenario 2 until things get clarified.
Also, yes, the cops can lie to you. I don’t agree that they are always bad, since often they are lying in pursuit of solving an actual crime that in actual fact should be getting solved, but when they’re dealing with you, you need to recognize when it is an adversarial interaction, even if they are faking being friendly with you at the moment. This kind of thing is why I highly recommend people watching a lot of bodycam videos on YouTube at some point in their lives. You can sort of see the basic structure and some of the ways they tend to approach interactions, in cases where they’re trying to trick someone that they’re talking to.
Bad advice
Don’t talk to cops unless you are legally obligated to do so. Depending on the state you may have to identify yourself, and in some locations and contexts provide identification. You should know your local laws. In my state it is not required even if detained although in practice refusal to identify just means you aren’t going home for a looooong time. You do have to give your license if you’re stopped while driving, of course, but you do not have to answer any other questions other than signing the citation. The aclu has a website clearly outlining what you are required to do in each state including wallet sized cards with the information
Real police advice: if they’re giving you shit shut the fuck up. If they’re arresting you just go with it. You aren’t going to win. They’re going to call in 900 back up units and 2 helicopters with thermal imaging and a tank to track you because they’re basically an army now. The more you resist the more likely you die and become a sad headline that people post and forget about in 20 minutes. They aren’t trained to take you down safely. They aren’t trained to de escalate. They aren’t trained to control their anger. They will often get furious if you resist their authority and take out that aggression on you with extreme violence. They will slam you to the ground, choke you, punch you, beat you with their knock off tonfa, taze you repeatedly, and restrain you in ways that are dangerous and restrict your breathing. They will outright ignore you if you plead for help or become unresponsive. They will let you die, wait 5-10 minutes despite being on camera, then call for medical who will take another 10 minutes to respond to your long dead corpse that could’ve possibly been resuscitated 15 minutes ago if they hadn’t stood around doing nothing like ghouls. They have 0 serious repercussions for this behavior, at worst they’ll get shuffled around
Let them arrest you, shut the fuck up, and fight it in court. Unfortunately you will need resources to do this and pretty substantial ones. I just hired a lawyer to process documents for a subpoena against a client in my healthcare practice. It was a fairly simple case of document review and it cost $2300. Probably took him 45 minutes of actual work, if that. The system is unfair and rigged against you.
Real real police advice as a result: avoid them at all costs.
In the US you’re not legally obliged to talk to cops. Ever. Have a lawyer do it.
This is sometimes factually incorrect. You are legally obligated to identify yourself in certain situations and refusal to do so will get you arrested. If a cop “suspects you of having committed a crime” in a state with a statute for stop and identify you legally have to do so. 23 states have these statutes. The statues vary a bit and generally require probable cause but the bar for that can be quite low (eg are you black and outside? Probable cause!)
And of course if you are operating a motor vehicle you are required to identify yourself when stopped
Blanket statements like yours are misleading and confusing. They lead to people getting seriously injured or even killed because they then believe that they truly can legally say absolutely nothing to cops ever with legal impunity, which is often not the case. Cops don’t respond well to people not following the rules correctly. The rules are confusing, likely intentionally
Yeah, driving a car is a valid exception.
Please, for everyone’s safety, dont drive a car.
You covered scenario 2 in detail, yes. If someone steals my car, and they go to talk to my neighbor and he says “I don’t answer questions. Am I being detained?”, then fuck my neighbor, as far as I’m concerned.
Fuck your car, the cops aren’t gonna find it. They’re there to write a police report so you can get an insurance claim.
The only way they recover your stolen car is if the person who stole it joyrides it and abandons it. Your neighbors testimony isn’t helpful in this scenario
If your car was desirable and actually stolen for parts or to be resold it’s long gone and the cops will do absolutely nothing
Similarly if your home was burglarized. Look at the statistics of solve rates for these crimes in your city. If they’re anything like mine they are shockingly low and the only reason they aren’t 0 is because of literal happenstance like the above scenario and not actual “detective work”
However, your neighbor opening their door for the cops does create a host of potential issues for your neighbor. Perhaps they have drug paraphernalia in plain sight in their living room? Now the cops have probable cause to search their home without a warrant because you think those noble officers are going to search high and low for your shitty car (they aren’t). Or they’re an illegal immigrant, the cops are racist, and see an in to send ins later that day. Or your neighbor is rude and standoffish, escalates things with the cop (who are known for their expert de escalation skills) and then ends up getting arrested for “obstruction”
The cops should have thought of that before they started abusing their authority and needlessly victimizing people. If they didn’t act the way they do, people would trust them enough to talk to them.
Don’t hate the players, hate the game.
Pro tip: They’re not going to find your car anyway, and even if they do the only reason was because whoever stole it abandoned it somewhere after wrecking it. In my area they take about 4 to 24 hours to even show up for such calls, so for this example the chances of them actually catching the perp in the act and getting your car back before it’s trashed are zero.
I’m just picturing you saying all of this to me while I’m over at your door, explaining that my car got stolen and asking you for access to the security cams or something, and then listening to this whole spiel about how you refuse to cooperate with any type of police investigation, with a pained look on my face, and then saying “Jesus Christ, never mind” and leaving.
I and people I know have interacted in many different types of scenarios with the police in the US. Not every situation and person fits neatly into the fun emotionally satisfying stereotypes that are your favorite stereotypes through which to view the world.
