I mean… I kinda get it, but nowadays it’s starting to get absurd.
(EDIT: This was supposed to be a “blow air out my nose and get on with my life” meme…)
Inside me are two wolves
One thinks Chinese tech is cool and innovative
The other hates fascist dictatorships
*both of the wolves are gay
You may or may not think China is “authoritarian” but how on earth are they fascist?
Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
Far right? Hm, maybe not. Otherwise: Check, check, quasi-check, check, check, check, …
China has become a psudo Capitalist country in its quest for world domination.
Capitalism goes hand in hand with right wing extremism
I think China would have to do a lot more for the avg person before they could be considered socialist or communist again
So… Authoritarian, and not far right… So… Not fascist.
Calling a government fascist, but not far-right is like calling Death Valley a lake. There’s no fucking water (anymore), its not a fucking lake.
The far-right part is critical though. It’s kind of like how breast cancer needs to be in breast tissues. China is just authoritarian.
I mean yeah… Far right is kinda a big part of distinguishing authoritarian left vs authoritarian right. I think the only way you could possibly conflate the two is by ignoring economics.
Tradition is big. E.g TCM crap over science
You cannot disagree with the state
Stokes fear and hatred of outsiders
Blames social frustrations on those outsiders
Appeals to restore past glory
Han ethnic supremacy
You could go through all of Eco’s points and apply them to China pretty fittingly.
Been on xiaohongshu for a while now and the chinese netizens I interacted with were nothing but kind to foreigners even when we treated them like shit.
Appeals to restore past glory
Genuinely, what on earth are you talking about? China’s past is full of poverty, humiliation, and exploitation, literally, “The century of humiliation!” The only people who “appeal to restore past glory” are the CIA-funded Shen Yun performances romanticizing “China before communism.” The Chinese people I talk to will specifically point to the Qing as a clear demonstration of the danger of clinging to tradition and the necessity of adapting and looking forward.
China literally had a cultural revolution seeking to abolish tradition. I expect you would call that fascist just as you call if fascist whenever some people still follow tradition, after all:
“During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology… What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum.”
You cannot disagree with the state
Technically you could make thinly-veiled criticisms against local governments, but just not the central government or Xi Jingping
Or you can talk shit about the government behind closed doors, there are no telescreens like Orwell’s 1984.
TCM crap over science
That shit is fucking annoying. My mom keep telling me anti-depressants are bad 😓
Not agreeing with your dictator makes it impossible to leave the country, keeps your bloodline out of good schools, and if your rhetoric is bad enough you just get abducted and dissappear.
Social Credit Scores are dehumanizing and evil.
Pretty fascist if you ask me.
The social credit score stuff is basically a Western myth. There was some local level rumblings and plans, but most of it has been unpopular or axed. The only thing that exists at a national level for individuals is the equivalent of a credit score in the US and western countries. I believed this narrative at one point, but then I delved deeper. https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/11/22/1063605/china-announced-a-new-social-credit-law-what-does-it-mean/
I think many might reference the Uyghur genocide + extreme authoritarianism to explain why they call China fascist. I personally, am not educated on the persecution of the Uyghur genocide part, so I’m not so sure.
But China definitely has hints of nationalism and “former glory” or whatever when they start talking about Taiwan and the South China Sea. Sooo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This is copy pasted but solid information, I can list plenty more as well. America loved to lie about the USSR then and they love to lie about China now. They use the same disprovable tactics but we fall for them because we are a new generation and have been taught propaganda in our history classes as if it is fact.
The whole conspiracy theory started with a claim of millions of Uyghurs being supposedly imprisoned story is based on two highly dubious “studies.”.
However, this claim is completely absurd when you stop and think about it even for a minute. That figure 1 million is repeated again and again. Let’s just look at how much space would you actually need to intern one million people.
This is a photo of Rikers Island, New York City’s biggest prison. The actual size of a facility interning ten thousand people.
According to Wikipedia, “The average daily inmate population on the island is about 10,000, although it can hold a maximum of 15,000.” Let’s assume this is a Xinjiang detention camp, holding ten to fifteen thousand people. How many of these would it take to hold one million people?
Let’s do some math:
| Rikers Size | Rikers Prisoners | One Million Uyghurs Size |
|---|---|---|
| 413.2 acres (0.645 square miles) | 10,000 to 15,000 | 43 to 64 square miles |
In reality, one million people would probably take more space; all the supposed detention camps we see are much less dense than Rikers.
For comparison, San Francisco is 47 square miles. Amsterdam is 64 square miles. You’d literally need detention camps that total the size of San Francisco or Amsterdam to intern one million Uyghurs. It’d be like looking at a map of California. There’s Los Angeles. There’s San Diego. And look, there’s San Francisco Concentration City with its one million Uyghurs.
Literally visible to the naked eye from space.
CHRD states that it interviewed dozens of ethnic Uyghurs in the course of its study, but their enormous estimate was ultimately based on interviews with exactly eight Uyghur individuals. Based on this absurdly small sample of research subjects in an area whose total population is 20 million, CHRD “extrapolated estimates” that “at least 10% of villagers […] are being detained in re-education detention camps, and 20% are being forced to attend day/evening re-education camps in the villages or townships, totaling 30% in both types of camps.” Furthermore, it doesn’t even make sense from logistics perspective.
Practically all the stories we see about China trace back to Adrian Zenz who is a far right fundamentalist nutcase and not a reliable source for any sort of information. The fact that he’s the primary source for practically every article in western media demonstrates precisely what I’m talking about when I say that coverage is divorced from reality.
Zenz is a born-again Christian who lectures at the European School of Culture and Theology. This anodyne-sounding campus is actually the German base of Columbia International University, a US-based evangelical Christian seminary which considers the “Bible to be the ultimate foundation and the final truth in every aspect of our lives,” and whose mission is to “educate people from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ.”
Zenz’s work on China is inspired by this biblical worldview, as he recently explained in an interview with the Wall Street Journal. “I feel very clearly led by God to do this,” he said. “I can put it that way. I’m not afraid to say that. With Xinjiang, things really changed. It became like a mission, or a ministry.”.
Along with his “mission” against China, heavenly guidance has apparently prompted Zenz to denounce homosexuality, gender equality, and the banning of physical punishment against children as threats to Christianity.
Zenz outlined these views in a book he co-authored in 2012, titled Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation. In the tome, Zenz discussed the return of Jesus Christ, the coming wrath of God, and the rise of the Antichrist.
The fact that this nutcase is being paraded as a credible researcher on the subject is absolutely surreal, and it’s clear that the methodology of his “research” doesn’t pass any kind of muster when examined closely.
It’s also worth noting that there is a political angle around the narrative around Xinjiang. For example, here’s George Bush’s chief of staff openly saying that US wants to destabilize the region, and NED recently admitting to funding Uyghur separatism for the past 16 years on their own official Twitter page. An ex-CIA operative details US operations radicalizing and training terrorists in the region in this book. Here’s an excerpt:
US has been stoking terrorism in the region while they’ve been running a propaganda campaign against China in the west. In fact, US even classified Uyghur separatists as a terrorist group at one point https://www.mintpressnews.com/us-was-at-war-uyghur-terrorists-now-claims-etim-doesnt-exist/276916/
Here’s an interview with a son of imam killed in Xinjiang https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-19/Son-of-imam-assassinated-in-Kashgar-s-2014-mosque-attack-speaks-out-RqNiyrcRuo/index.html
Here’s an account from a Pakistani journalist who has been all over Xinjiang (which borders Pakistan) claims that western media reports on “atrocities” are lies. https://dailytimes.com.pk/723317/exposing-the-occidents-baseless-lies-about-xinjiang/
It’s also worth noting that the accusations originate entirely from the west while Muslim majority countries support China, and their leaders have visited Xinjiang many times.
- https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/on-eid-xinjiang-imams-defend-china-against-u-s-criticism-1.5425967
- https://www.bolnews.com/latest/2023/07/pak-religious-leaders-nurture-bonds-of-cooperation-with-xinjiang/
- https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/w/islamic-envoys-say-china-is-protecting-minorities-in-xinjiang-after-five-day-visit
Also notable that whenever western media actually deigns to visit Xinjiang, which is not often, they’re unable to produce support for any of their claims of mass imprisonment and oppression, so they opt for insinuations instead https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-china-health-travel-7a6967f335f97ca868cc618ea84b98b9
There’s a further list of debunking here if you’re interested https://redsails.org/the-xinjiang-atrocity-propaganda-blitz/
The whole thing is very clearly a propaganda blitz that US is cynically using to manipulate impressionable people in the west.
I’m down to call them authoritarian because every state is authoritarian in my eyes but they are absolutely not fucking fascists
Let’s be honest: the only reason for this is the oppressive chinese government, dead stop
I think part of it is being extra defensive considering our tankie neighbors… I don’t have any issues with the people of China, the culture of China, etc, etc.
I’ve always thought that everyone was on the same page about China’s oppressive government, but now it feels like it needs to be said, as there are people actively arguing in its favor.
Naw the same shit happens on Reddit and Facebook and every other place that isn’t TikTok or XHS. There’s a chart that shows Americans’ opinion of China being more or less 50/50 until 2015ish and then turning sharply negative after the trade war/propaganda blitz against them that started during Trump’s first term.
I hope that in publicly questioning the narratives I’ve been fed all my life I am not assumed to be advocating for China.
I just like to try to think critically, compare disparate sources, and not pretend that I’m somehow immune to propaganda.
It seems like people are quick to try to label me a tankie these days for engaging with the world in that way, but I don’t consider myself a tankie. It feels like a thought-terminating cliche.
Oh I have zero issues with all the beautiful cultural qualities of China, just as I don’t have that with any culture. I also have zero qualms with your average American (except the loud mouth “amuuurica fuck yeah!” types, those are insufferable)
I have big issues with the Chinese government, with the US government, etc.
You cannot be on the side of the people of China, and claim China has an oppressive government.
Don’t forget things like China blatantly stealing IP fro the west.
And rich Chinese buying up land in western countries.
And rich Chinese students going to universities in the west and then buying/cheating their way through their degree.
And (this might come under your point) destroying domestic industries of western countries by flooding the market with cheap inferior products.
There really is no justification to simp for any country/government. They are all pretty terrible and genocidal.
Name a government that’s not terrible and I’ll find you some articles showing the state being terrible.
Statism is unjust.
these are the reasons I think this happens:
- their numerous accusations of spyware
- their government being fucked up (especially their censorship)
- being known for making a lot of mass-produced garbage for cheap
- the working conditions in those factories being horrible
- regular racism (which may be caused by the above)
edit: reworked comment into bulleted list instead of run-on sentence
- their government being fucked up (especially their censorship)
I would love to discuss this with anyone that’s willing. If their government is as awful and fucked up as everyone says why does the average Chinese citizen generally have a better life than the average American in their respective societal totem pole (in cities specifically) ?
They have far more purchasing power for food, rent. Their healthcare is affordable. While censorship is a thing towards certain topics, there certainly isn’t a lack of discussion. They have far better public transit systems, far more parks, and public utilities, absolute ownership (no property tax).
To me it seems we’re continuously demonizing the lives of those we don’t understand who are actually far better off than most of us in the states.
I lived and worked outside Shanghai for a bit, but it was a while ago and probably has changed a good bit. What makes you think their lives are far better off than those in the states?
Not necessarily disagreeing, but it absolutely was not the case 15 years ago. American life is on a downhill though, zero argument there.
Right now I look at my life in the late 20s in the states and even despite having a well paying tech job, I will have to sacrifice everything in my life in order to have a family or even own a house and those two are exclusive of each other. Although not in deep debt, I’ve definitely had to pay my fair share towards medical and student debt.
I’m watching critical infrastructure projects that could impact so many people take 30 years to build.
The amount of homeless we see on the streets is our own governmental failure and the increased crime associated with it. Seeing what I see in US streets really can wear an empathetic person down, it’s a cruel world here.
Our diet and price to eat healthy in the US is continuously worsening (yes this is a choice to an extent but also a cultural problem that grows over time)
And even though it’s absolutely recency bias, the deportation of Latinos does not strike confidence in me given my heritage.
I do think China has changed a lot in the last 15-30 years, and don’t get me wrong I don’t think it’s a perfect life, I understand there’s an infinite amount of competition for well paying jobs, and housing prices are extremely high (albeit not as high relative to ours). But when you show me how China has effectively succeeded at each of these topics compared to our own governmental failures that I experience on the daily, it makes me question my own life here and why people immediately criticize China without nuance.
I would love to discuss this with anyone that’s willing. If their government is as awful and fucked up as everyone says why does the average Chinese citizen generally have a better life than the average American in their respective societal totem pole (in cities specifically) ?
Because the social contract of 21st century authoritarian societies is “We give you prosperity, you do politics through gov-approved channels.” Punishment for dissent depends on how insecure the state feels right now.
On the plus side, the government cares about your prosperity. As long as it lasts, elites can divide power among themselves however they like.
On the minus – society doesn’t control its government (power transition happens by committee, not elections) and it can’t force any kind of change when elites are against it. Modern states have so much repression power, they can shut down any activism when they don’t mind bloodstains.
And when prosperity ends, the new contract will be “Do as we say and nobody gets tortured”.
The entire country tried to revolt in 1989 and millions of citizens were killed by their own military. People who speak out lose access to most services and can’t even sign up for online platforms.
Right now China is experiencing a massive homelessness crisis because their assigned homes aren’t in the places they live and work.
revolt in 1984
Its 1989 June 4 btw, not 1984. While the 1989 massacre did happen, we don’t know if there’s millions. (due to censorship, we will never really know the true numbers) And its not a revolt, it was a peaceful protest by college students, and mostly in Beijing. They were attempting to talk to the leaders and talk reform, not revolt. They were even waving Chinese flags.
But the leadership got paranoid AF so they sent the tanks.
Right now China is experiencing a massive homelessness crisis because their assigned homes aren’t in the places they live and work.
Yea that’s the Hukou (户口) problem. Rural people want to work in cities, but they are essentially treated as illegal immigrants, even if this is literally their country. 🤦♂️
Do people still use Jim Crowe laws to talk about the daily life of US citizens? These are 40-60 year old discussion that do not adequately describe what life is like to the average citizen today.
Yeah they have their own homeless issues, but imo having a homeless population who has a job and chooses not to return home vs one that has nothing is two very different situations and almost incomparable problems.
I would love to discuss this with anyone that’s willing. If their government is as awful and fucked up as everyone says why does the average Chinese citizen generally have a better life than the average American in their respective societal totem pole (in cities specifically) ?
Many Chinese people want to go to western countries. Nowadays there might be less people wanting to emmigrate, but when I left, going to a western country was a common sentinment. Some want to study in a western University and bring back the knowledge home, others want to emmigrate permanently. My Aunts and Uncles in China are still on a waitlist trying to come. Now with trump, I’m not sure they’ll ever get a visa, or if the US would deteriorate and get worse than China with this fascism trajectory that the US is having. China is getting better as time goes on, but still not good enough that people are still trying to see better life abroad.
TLDR is that: China isn’t inherently worse, Western countries aren’t inherently better. It’s all a roll of dice. But in the US (and especially other western places like the EU) that “roll of dice” is often better than the “roll of dice” in China. China has way too many people and there is more competition for jobs. Not to mention, the GaoKao (高考) is like 10 times harder than the US SAT/ACT.
China has way too many people and there is more competition for jobs.
Is this only for well paying jobs like software engineering or is this also true for shittier service/factory style jobs?
Quite frankly, I think you’re failing to see that a major part of American culture, a literal founding principle, is “live free or die”. Americans are obviously not going to take that censorship as just a small downside.
Quality of life is less important than freedom.
absolute ownership (no property tax).
This is also just a lie. They don’t own land.
Pointing out Americans system of live free or dying to avert censorship while also repeating US propaganda about China is hilariously ironic
What happens to the land/house you own if you don’t pay property tax in the US? Chinas 70 year lease is effectively a more solidified ownership than the US.
We, in fact, do own land. We just have an explicit contract with our government vs the implicit one people in the US have. Look into imminent domain seizures in the US.
As an ethnic chinese in South East Asia, there’s two kind of chinese i’ve met, “China is the best country in the world! CCP is the best because they take good care of all the chinese everywhere! Everything about that country is good!” and “China is the worst country in the world! CCP is the worst because they censor everything and lie about everything! Everything about that country is dogshit!”, rarely in between.
My stance is a democratic China would probably be as prosperous as Taiwan and my family wouldn’t have to leave.
Me and my brother hates CCP
My parents love CCP
Grandparents also love CCP (I assume, I don’t talk to them much)
Every time my parents praise CCP, I just be like: “So you agree with the CCP? Why didn’t you abort me like they were trying to force you to?” (I’m talking about the One Child Policy btw) Then my dad said 国情不同 (state of the country is different) as an excuse, country was poor and needed to lower birth rates. And my mom started saying how much she “sacrificed” for me, lile bruh just conpletely steer away the topic. Yea sure thank you for your sacrifice and the millions of Yuan RMB they paid as a fine. But why steer the topic?
So they love CCP, simultaneously disobeyed a core CCP policy of birth control? 🤔 Doublethink much?
May she she should’ve, instead of hiding, just let them take her and let them forcefully abort me, maybe I wouldn’t have to deal with this fucked up world with dictators everywhere, state capitalism disguised as “Socialism”, and also democratic capitalist countries devolving into fascism (ahem USA ahem). Man fuck this world
Maybe I shouldn’t have been born, less surffering in the world 🤷♂️
For what it’s worth, you’re not alone. I think I’m going with the whole, “I must outlive my enemies” ideology for coping, because fuck it. But it’s always refreshing to hear from like-minded people, when sometimes I feel so helpless to change anything. Ignorance has run rampant, but at least I know there’s friends all over the world
It sounds to me like your parents are engaging with nuance in a complicated world, rather than boiling everything down to either “this is good” or “this is bad”.
ETA: You’re welcome to downvote me, I don’t mind, the points don’t matter. But I prefer discussion. Tell me why I’m wrong so we can have a conversation!
If it helps in any way, every country in the world has their set if problems, but in essence it evolves around the fact that many/most people are incapable of realising they were wrong and change their behaviour and voting.
One of Germany’s issues for example is that while industrialization has made the country prosperous it also made it demitral to the environment. Those that lived in the golden times and worked for it naturally don’t want to miss out their hard-earned pensions. However the younger generations have to work even harder to finance their pensions as they make up much of the population. Meanwhile the world’s environment is fucked and we need to swiftly transform the country which is expensive all the while dealing with rising nationalism in the world slowly rising in heat and already discharging into war around european neighbourhood. And yet the same lucky generations are calling us weak and lazy, but insist on voting parties that don’t have any tiny ounce of interest to work to deal with the problems we face and actually oppose working towards an actual solution.
So yeah, i am honestly quite hopeless for the future myself, but I force myself to at least try to change it - I mean sticking our heads in the sand only helps the assholes doesn’t it?
