I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?
What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?
What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?
What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?
Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
When widespread violence is already in play, then the use of widespread violence in opposition is justified. It’s not always the right move, though.
Edit to add that, looking at history, those advocating for large-scale violence in pursuit of a righteous cause are typically more interested in the violence than the cause.
Is it possible to pursue a righteous cause through violence? What if every alternative to violence has been exhausted, if that’s even possible.
Not so much an answer to your question, but I want to push back on the idea that Hamas are in any way about defending the rights of ordinary Palestinians. They are a genocidal hate group who use other Palestinians as pawns in their terrorist atrocities. Think whatever you want about Israel and support whatever solution to the situation you like (unless it’s genocide - don’t support that), but don’t think that Hamas are in any way the good guys.
If in doubt, just remember - the good guys never murder babies. Hannah are not freedom fighters, they are evil.
I’m of the mind that violence towards innocent civilians is never justified. Violence towards an oppressive authority can be, depends on the situation. Also, as a side note, it’s impossible to commit violence towards property/inanimate objects. Violence, in my opinion, is an act that specifically harms a person. So burning a house down, even if the owner is not in it, is still violence towards a person.
what if those civilians are condoning/supporting what the oppressive authority is doing?
Who is a civilian? Does a guy with a shotgun who doesn’t like you in his backyard count as a civilian? Etc. It’s hard to nail down.
That’s true, I would argue that is someone is threatening you then you can obviously respond with violence. This is an issue that has been going on in Israel. Civilians were given weapons and backed by the military to settle. This definitely blurs the line and helps to illustrate the complexity of the problem. In the case of Israel, the current situation is absolutely the result of its governments policies over the past several decades. This does not excuse wanton violence targeting civilians directly though. That’s not even to mention the attacks and absolute war crimes happening to Palestinians right now and in the past.
It is a complicated question with not a single clear answer for every situation.
A lot of people are probably wondering the same thing, but are not connected to realize this. A lot of people are primed like grasshoppers are to changing into locusts
Whenever it’s “the war on/against” something… apparently.
People have been coming up with theories about this forever, from perspectives and time periods as diverse as Aristotle, St. Augustine, Gandhi, and Trotsky. You put a lot of very difficult questions in your post, but you didn’t put forth a criteria for what “justified” means to you. I think you’re going to need to interrogate that before being able to even think about any of these questions. For example, is violence justified by better outcomes, or by some absolute individual right to fight your oppressor? Is justification a question of morality, legality, tactical value, or something entirely different?
I know this lies at the core of the question, simply because “justification” is such a complex concept on its own. I asked the question because I can’t for the life of me get even remotely close to an answer because the different theories of morality and justice all are founded in sound logic, even though they contradict one another.
I want to hear what other people think, if they’ve made up their mind, and why they think what they think.
Word. Personally, I really like St. Augustine’s writings, which is a weird thing for an atheist and socialist living 1600 years later to say. I got really into his stuff during the pandemic for some reason. I also recommend some of Trotsky’s writing about war, especially in the run-up to WW1 while they were trying to hold the second international together. Lots of really wonderful stuff about international solidarity, and the role of socialists in a time of capitalist war, that I think would do people good to read today, 100 years later. He also wrote some stuff once he was in power after WW1 that I personally found less cool, but interesting in a “no one can reign innocently” way.
At the end of the day, you will still have to answer the root question(s) for yourself to yourself in order to resolve it for you. I admire your open-mindedness, but I worry that the post here is your way to avoid answering the deeper questions.
Maybe I am, but I don’t think I am, avoiding answering the question. I think there is no universal answer. Having been raised protestant and pushed away from organized religion by the obstinate idiocy that is the way so many people believe in steadfast rules of morality that have no room for exceptions (i.e. abortion is ALWAYS bad), I have come to realize there are things and concepts of value to humanity that are constantly at odds with each other. Regardless, the value of those things cannot be quantified by scalar values, and therefore cannot be directly compared. For example, human life is valuable, but what about when human lives are directly at odds with one another, like a fetus in the womb of a person who doesn’t have access to enough resources to take care of a baby? The correct course of action to take depends on an infinite number of factors, and those factors are undeniably affected by whichever person perceives them. I believe this to be the reason that the Bible itself contains directions for how, and describes at least one situation in which, to perform an abortion.
I don’t believe that morality is relative, I believe there are things and concepts that will always have value and importance to humanity, but I believe that the value of those things and concepts is relative given each scenario.
Putting it this way, the answer to my question about justifying violence becomes a question of the way the situation that could lead to violence is perceived by each person in the situation. So there is no objective way to determine the answer. And I hate that, but it does bring me some peace. We have to do the best we can with what we have. If our best is bad, then so be it, but we can prepare ourselves for certain situations so our best can be better than it would be otherwise.
I have no idea if any of what I just said made any sense, but it helped me clarify my thoughts. Maybe it’ll help someone else.
