See, moderate Democrats are just right wing. Republicans are closer to fascist. Your whole political spectrum has been wandering to the right for quite a while now. “Radical left” Democrats would be centrist anywhere else.
That, and the democrats are at least competent when it comes to implementing neoliberalism…
I would prefer a government that is further left. I think it would be more moral and create better outcomes for the people, but until we have a chance for that I’ll take competence…
In France we have a saying “Si t’es pas de gauche, t’es de droite” i.e “if you’re not a leftist, then you’re on the right wing” meaning that if you do not explicitly reject the paradigm supported by the right then you’re implicitly accepting it and thus indirectly support right wing and conservatism.
Seems a bit suspect and authoritarian…
Does it work in reverse? If not, why not?
My first thought was, that’s just GWB’s “if you are not with us you are against us”, with different words.
I see what you mean and when I first heard that saying I thought so too. That’s why I developed a bit after. In my opinion it does not mean “if you’re not with us you’re against us in an irreversible manner” at all (I don’t fight against individuals, I fight against a toxic ideology). To me, it mostly aims to denounce the fact that centrists are actually right wing people who don’t admit it. And, at least in France, the situation tends to confirm that : Macron was officially “neither on the left nor on the right” and it has become clearer and clearer that he is, in fact, completely on the right end of the political spectrum (if not worse for some of our ministers like Retailleau who clearly carries a far right ideology).
In the Netherlands we are lucky that we have actually have a spectrum you can choose from. I am not that versed in the France political system, but I don’t believe in that you are either left or you are right.
I think most people can agree with statements from both the left and the right. At least if they get room to express that.
If you look at left and right political in the Netherlands than there is also an issue. The left generally wants higher taxes for the rich and more income for the poor. The right generally want lower taxes for businesses and want to pay the poor less money to compensate that or something like that. Neither side will focus on the middle class, but currently in The Netherlands it’s the middle class who pay the most taxes percentage wise. (The loss of govern ant benefits, increases the percentage you are taxed in this calculation).
I do believe that there are a lot of good politicians who can parade as somebody else while campaigning and then doing other things after they are chosen. That’s why you generally want more than one person to make decisions. However having 225 people who decide the direction of the country is not working either …
I’m not sure it’s a winning argument that’s all.
Most people aren’t political if they don’t have to be, the only time they think of politics when they have to vote or something is taken from them.
To call them the opposite of what you are just because they feel like they are unsure because they haven’t thought about it as a way to shame them into your position is to lose them and play into your opposition’s hands - “these crazy people are calling you Nazis/Communists”.
Two sides can play the centrist card to grab the unsure while driving a different agenda - I don’t see what’s stopping the left.
Eg Most people are not aware of how much damage France is doing in west Africa through proxy colonialism - if you ask them they’ll probably shrug. If you ask them to vote on it they’ll pick someone that seems somewhere in the middle. Are they colonialist oppressors? Seems like a far fetch.
Now try to strong arm them into a position, how do you think it’s going to go?
I’m not trying to cause or win an argument, I’ll stop here.
I think the French saying is a response to rising Fascism. If Fascism is taking power in your society and you do not directly and explicitly oppose it, then you are at the very least going to be tacitly supporting it. By definition, centrism cannot fight Fascism, because it will always “both sides” the problem, which ultimately only benefits the Fascists. This is what we are seeing now in the US with the Democrats. The only realistic opposition to Fascism in this scenario is Leftism.
Most Democrats don’t realize that capitalism relies on actual slavery… presently. They don’t know that the products they consume revolve around supply chains that even include child slavery. They don’t know the actual effects of US imperialism, regime change, and third-world exploitation. They don’t know that an estimated 40% of US agricultural workers are undocumented immigrants — modern slaves, with no human rights. I’m not being hyperbolic at all, but I suggest everybody do their own research.
Democrats are propagandized to not want to come to terms with the fact that even first-world workers are slaves. They may not be “owned”, but damn near — everybody is getting a raw deal under capitalism besides those that extract the vast majority of value, wealth, power, influence, and control.
Democrats are subjected to intense campaigns that include gaslighting, propaganda, and coercion, while critical facts and the actual reality is veiled to them.
Even US military policy and the reserve currency is designed to exploit emerging markets. The reason the US can print so much money every year to fund all its programs is because other countries are required to trade in USD so will buy it even though its being inflated so much, and if they decide to trade in something like gold dinars they get overthrown.
The entire US system is built on top of consumerism. Not saying we are better in NL or Europe, but the US really exploded the consumerism and abused the angelo saxton mindset. Well and the US has been corrupt for a while, probably since it was founded that doesn’t help either.
They are the same as early-2000s Republicans.
They are not the same as 2025 Republicans, who are literally thieving, murderous Mussolini-emulating fascists.
To be fair, still Republicans… just two decades apart.
I’ll admit Trump is a lot clumsier about saying it out loud, but 2000s Republicans were absolutely on the same wave. Being virulently anti-anyone-dark-than-an-italitan, actively eroding free speech, and hating anyone who worked for a living has been standard conservative shit since at least the 1800s. If anything, the 2000s Republicans had more of a war-boner to boot. Trump did in fact bring the facism home a fair bit more openly, but let’s not mistake a new hairdo for a new political movement.
The early 2000s Republicans are the same people as 2025 Republicans.
Some of them changed their beliefs. They moved right - or were moved right by an incredibly effective decades-long propaganda campaign.
And some of them didn’t change their beliefs at all - they’re simply more emboldened to express beliefs that weren’t acceptable twenty years ago.
Give it twenty more years and Democrats will be where Republicans are now.
The current Democratic party is basically the Reagan Republicans with more emphasis on civil rights.
US politics have skewed further and further rightward for the last 50 years. On a global scale, Democrats are firmly center-right.
Bernie Sanders and AOC are barely left of center for the rest of the world, but in US politics they’re “off the deep end.”
They are not all the same. Notably absent are John McCain, and Mitt Romney. Even Mitch McConnell is kind of gone, with at least one foot out the door and much reduced influence. Meanwhile, thereva lot of newcomers that were brought in by the tee party and Trump, most notably Trump himself.
Found the source:
Okay I read the source now and what I found funny is the part where people describe how “moderates” on dating apps are just conservatives. An observation I can regard as true in my experience, they are just self-aware enough to not be dismissed outright, but not self-aware enough to actually change a thing about themselves and become a better person.
Remembering how dating apps for conservative people tend to go down (only dudes, because what chick would engage with those guys…), I find it funny to see this echoed here again. There is, after all, no middle ground on most social issues anymore and we do good to see moderates as just another trick of conservative rebranding to obfuscate what they truly are.
There is, after all, no middle ground on most social issues anymore
There never was, unless you consider supporting desegregation but not interracial marriage a middle ground I guess.
Okay I read the source now and what I found funny is the part where people describe how “moderates” on dating apps are just conservatives. An observation I can regard as true in my experience, they are just self-aware enough to not be dismissed outright, but not self-aware enough to actually change a thing about themselves and become a better person.
This is DEEPLY VALIDATING thank you
As it should be! After all, self-validation is far more important than winning elections.
and being condescending to leftists especially when they are correct and it makes you annoyed you can’t come up with good rhetorical counter arguments that hold together logically… is the MOST important!!
Some of them genuinely seem to be in some weird form of denial I can’t understand. I lost a friend from his slide during covid who would fit this. Self identified moderate who only ever defended right wing views and the worst of the grifters.
I experienced this recently with a coworker who talked himself in circles about how he cared about facts and logic and agreed with both parties on different issues. But…he spat out Republican grifter speech over and over (basic biology!) and talked about how he watched these “debate me” idiots online who showed how Democrats “barely ever back up their arguments with logic” while the Republicans apparently do (you probably know the ones, they’re famous grifters but I don’t remember their names), as if these guys wouldn’t simply edit out everything but the most extreme people to use as evidence for their claims.
I have a line from a song I like to use when talking about these sorts of people: Spread the facts out like a fan on the floor, throw away the ones that make you feel bad.
Cognitive dissonance is a requirement for this kind of thinking.
