the front page is now like half articles on this currently, so it’s probably time for a megathread because none of us want to keep track of 12 threads on this subject and all the resulting comments. only major subsequent developments (for example, boots on the ground; pronunciations by governments; that sort of stuff) will get their own thread. otherwise please post stuff in here for the time being. any threads not meeting this criteria will be locked and removed. thank you in advance for your cooperation.
It’s terrible that Israeli civilians were murdered.
It’s wonderful that the world is stating such, and showing its support to prevent further murder of innocents.
It’s terrible that Palestinian civilians were murdered.
It’s terrible that the world is ignoring this, and turning a blind eye to further murder of innocents.
Exactly. If you look at the big picture, Israelis have killed WAY more Palestinians over the years, as well as apartheid and stealing Palestinian land.
I’m not taking sides, but the one sided coverage gross.
taking sides is fine and even right, but that needs to come with recognition and acceptance of that side’s problems
The problem with this conflict in particular is that taking the side of Palestine has become synonymous with taking the side of Hamas, or with simply being antisemitic. It’s essential if you want to express any support for Palestine that you also painstakingly lay out exactly what you support and what you don’t, otherwise… Well, the onion said it best.
It doesn’t matter who killed more. That’s why this never ends. “My tragedy is worse than your tragedy” is never productive. It just serves as an (incorrect) argument for why it’s permissible for one group to keep committing atrocities while the other group has to suffer it and be the first to bury the hatchet. Then the script flips and everyone does it again from their respective positions. It never ends.
It’s terrible that some civilians immigrated to Israel for the sole purpose of becoming settlers and pushing Palestinians out.
It’s terrible that some civilians immigrated to Gaza for the sole purpose of having as big a family as possible to use their own children and grandchildren as human shields against Israeli settlers.
It’s terrible that dual-citizenship people on both sides are asking “their” [other] countries to evacuate them, after having spent decades there on purpose.
It’s terrible that Israel is willing to watch millions of civilians starve… that Egypt doesn’t want to let refugees in… and Hamas doesn’t want to let them out.
So far, I see nothing wonderful in all of this.
Source: Spanish TV.
There has been some uproar this week because there are over 10,000 Spanish citizens in Israel and Gaza, but the government only decided to fleet 2 military planes to evacuate 500 of them. Turns out, they were only evacuating the “tourists and people on business trips”… meaning the rest are not; they’re people who decided to immigrate there. Following that, different reporters got hold of people “left behind”, both in Israel and Gaza.
One of those people, was a lady who immigrated to Gaza 40 years ago, “to settle right next to the Israeli border”, and now kept repeating how the Spanish consulate is ignoring her request for evacuating her 19-people family, with many children among them.
It’s estimated that 50% of the population of Gaza are underage, meaning they’re people born in the last 18 years, into a conflict that’s been going for 70 years, from way before this lady decided to immigrate there 40 years ago and contribute to the population growth.
Source: Internet (various)
Some statistics about this:
-
Palestine demographics pyramid - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine
-
Israel demographics pyramid - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel
-
Population of Palestinian and Israeli territories - https://www.economist.com/special-report/2017/05/18/israel-still-rules-over-palestinians-50-years-after-its-six-day-war
-
Percentage of Palestinians and Jews in Historical Palestine in Various Years - https://www.pcbs.gov.ps/site/512/default.aspx?lang=en&ItemID=3734
Both sides are engaged in a long term (100+ years) strategy of trying to out-number each other, with sympathizers of each side migrating there to increase the numbers for the conflict. Since immigration into Gaza and Palestine is more restricted than into Israel, the former have been trying to churn out as many “new residents” (aka kids) as quickly as possible… who are now being used by Hamas as a humanitarian crisis bargaining chip.
Notice how even with a steady emigration of about half the population of Palestine every year, the total population keeps growing, along with a steady immigration rate of around 200K/year:
-
1990 - over 1.5M emigrants, population 2M - https://www.populationpyramid.net/migrants/en/state-of-palestine/1990/
-
2000 - over 2M emigrants, population 3M - https://www.populationpyramid.net/migrants/en/state-of-palestine/2013/
-
2010 - over 2.5M emigrants, population 4M - https://www.populationpyramid.net/migrants/en/state-of-palestine/2013/
-
2013 - over 3M emigrants, population 4.2M - https://www.populationpyramid.net/migrants/en/state-of-palestine/2013/
‘The Onion’ Stands With Israel Because It Seems Like You Get In Less Trouble For That - The Onion posts absolutely fire satire (safire?) once again
Their Onion Explains: The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict is eight years old, but I still consider it paramount to understanding this complex geopolitical conflict.
Omar and Tlaib Are Condemned in the US for Saying What Prominent Israelis Are Saying(direct)
About 1/3rd through the article, they start highlighting some of the progressive conversations that have been being had in Israel, comparing them to the remarks AOC, Bernie Sanders, Ilhan Omar, Cori Bush, Rashida Tlaib, and others have been criticized as “disgraceful” for.
Some important ones IMO:
Daniel Levy, a former Israeli peace negotiator and top adviser to former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, who told the BBC, “If anyone told me that what the militants did on the weekend was a legitimate response to years and years of occupation. I would say: ‘No, you’re wrong-headed. You’ve lost sight of humanity and reality.’ And if anyone tells me that what Israel is doing in Gaza today is a legitimate response to what happened on the weekend, it’s exactly the same.”
Israeli human rights lawyer Michael Sfard, an expert on the rules of war, observed Wednesday that “Hamas committed abominable war crimes for which there can be no forgiveness. But the laws of war weren’t meant only for situations in which our blood is cool, or when there is no justified anger or understandable desire for revenge.” The lawyer explained:
It’s not easy for Israelis to think about Gazans’ rights in a week when Hamas committed crimes that are still impossible to digest and our whole society is mourning and crying. But Gaza’s catastrophe won’t wait for the end of our seven-day shivah.
Consequently, this needs to be said: Israel has held millions of people under a brutal blockade for more than 15 years with the support of the entire Western world. That is inhumane and inconceivable, and every solution to this bloody conflict ultimately includes respecting the rights of all people, both in Gaza and Sderot, to live with security and human dignity. And that begins with respecting the most basic rules as set down in the international laws of war, which are designed to reduce the harm to civilians.
It’s easy to get stuck in a North American bubble of media, but it’s also important to note what’s being said locally by people who have eyes on the ground and have been watching this stuff grow first hand for 75 years since the occupation of Israel.
It’s very telling that the media began insinuating (or labeling outright) Representatives Omar and Tlaib as being antisemitic for criticizing Israel’s response, but when Sanders says the same thing, and even more, they don’t.
If it’s not antisemitic for a Jewish person to say, it’s not antisemitic for someone else to. No one is immune from criticism that would otherwise be valid, simply because of who is giving it.
kicking things off: Israel is creating a shit ton of collateral damage. MSF says they’re being given just hours to evacuate their patients in Gaza before bombing continues:
it’s also just come out that an Israeli strike in Lebanon killed a Reuters journalist:
this is also a kind of insane detail to how bad the Israeli government has been handling the situation so far: The president of the United States has spoken with the families of Israelis whose loved ones are being held captive in Gaza. The prime minister of Israel has yet to do so. Make of it what you will.
fyi: if you’d like a vetted cause to donate to, people are fundraising for Palestine Children’s Relief Fund which is one of the best charities i’m aware of that does relief work in Gaza and puts basically all of the money given to them toward actual work and not salaries or overhead.
do you have one for EU folks? want to donate, but donating to an actual trustworthy org is hard enough when there isnt this much misinformation
