The Israeli army fired artillery shells containing white phosphorus, an incendiary weapon, in military operations along Lebanon’s southern border between 10 and 16 October 2023.
And the US and UK give unconditional support.
Idk about OP but I’ve been ashamed of my country since at least 2016 2001 1990 August 6, 1945 the 17th century when “we” decided that land settled by Native Americans somehow belonged to us. I wasn’t alive for most of that time but I guarantee my country has done shameful things for muuuch longer than 24 days.
If you believe the reports coming out of the Hamas aligned side, Israel has not once hit a legitimate military target. They were all civilians. Do you remember that refugee camp they hit yesterday? You know, the one with all the apartment buildings where Hamas leadership suspiciously died at the exact same time. That was all civilians.
Arab states in the immediate vicinity cannot fathom that Israel could be any more trustworthy than their own governments despite consistency on the Israeli side. To be honest, after having seen how it works myself, I don’t believe anything coming out of that region but those channels coming out of the Israeli state itself. I do not understand why people take any of the reports of the Hamas or aligned organizations at face value but they do.
State or no state, Hamas was legitimately elected by the people of Palestine. They committed a horrendous attack against Israel justifying a defensive war. War is fucking ugly. There’s no way around it without risking your own forces. This is not genocide as they are targeting military targets despite the narrative. Collateral damage is not inherently a war crime and people should learn what that means. Deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime. White phosphorous is only a war crime if they are signatory to the treaty banning its use which they are not nor are the United States or Russia.
The is a massive information war going on right now trying to pull public opinion to one side or the other and almost nothing can truly be trusted unless it comes from a primary source and even then they should be assessed for trustworthiness based on evidence and past performance.
This is also intended to take our attention away from Russia and Ukraine; just saying.
Israeli strikes are targeting locations where IDF instructed civilians to take shelter. This has been verified by BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67264703
They did not say they would not strike in the South and if you look at the spread of the strokes it is several orders of magnitude in the North. Nowhere in that article does it say where they were told to go in the south because they weren’t told a specific location and they have been significantly removed from the bloodshed. Additionally, they gave been removed from any ability to actually validate independently that what was struck was in fact not civilians so you are again taking Hamas at their word.
Define genocide then detail with trustworthy sources why this meets it.
I’m tired of people pontificating that this is genocide who cannot even define what genocide is. The other side are those that can define genocide but fully trust Hamas sources while distrusting Western sources.
… You dolt
Hope you remember in 20 years you were posting genocide denial rhetoric in your free time and feel ashamed. Same points used un many other genocides.
You know what’s funny about genocide denial rhetoric? It is exactly the same thing as the truth when there is no genocide. I trust Israel’s rhetoric infinitely more having seen the evidence myself.
Not one militant has been killed by Israel according to Hamas. They were all civilians. I don’t just mean in the current conflict but in the last 17 years. Find me one single example that wasn’t a high-profile commander that they could not explain away and then we can talk. When your entire army is made up of what you claim is civilians, genocide is an easy claim to make but a hard one to prove to those dying by your hand.
I think I will be just fine in 20 years and maybe we will actually have a Palestinian sovereign state when they do not have a literal terrorist organization as its elected government.
Do you believe UN reports about the “Hamas aligned side”? Or is that just some big conspiracy?
And by your own words: “Deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime.” “Do you remember that refugee camp they hit yesterday?” I’ll even concede and say sure, let’s assume there were Hamas terrorists hiding in the refugee camp. Let’s also assume there was terrorist-supporting infrastructure in the refugee camp. Guess what though. IT WAS STILL A FUCKING REFUGEE CAMP!
Let that sink in extra slow through your thick skull. Read through several times if you must. They knew there were innocent civilians in a refugee camp. They also suspected terrorists in said refugee camp. If you think the best and only option was to bomb that refugee camp, you’re wrong and a monster. Or is it that you’re simply a racist that thinks that every Palestinian is a terrorist simply for existing on the wrong “side”?
Let’s say we find out that there’s some terrorists hiding out in your city. Is the only solution to bomb the city? Yourself, your family, and your friends included? Let’s say we narrow it down to terrorists hiding on your block. What’s your solution? How much “collateral damage” (innocent civilian deaths) is acceptable to root out the terrorism that exists in your home town?
Edit: I would like to add that yes, this is distracting from the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I would also like to add that I recognize that I do not know nearly enough about this conflict to speak with authority on the subject. What I do know enough about though is that not every Palestinian is involved with nor supports Hamas. And not every Israeli is involved with nor supports the IDF. There are many Innocent people that have died, and are continuing to die from both sides of this conflict. And every one of those deaths is a tragedy. I wholeheartedly condemn Hamas’ killings of innocent civilians, and I wholeheartedly condemn Israel’s killings of innocent civilians. Both sides fucking suck and the people that are truly paying the price are the innocent people dying and losing loved ones. I don’t know what the answer is, or even if there is a “right answer”. Maybe a special ground operation would have minimized loss of life? I don’t know. What I definitely do know is that I will never be okay with the deaths of innocent people.
You mean the refugee camp that has been there so long there are multistory buildings and voting residents? Just because it is labeled as a refugee camp does not mean it functions as such. Is it worse than Hamas hiding in a regular residential area? If so, you should not be demonizing the Israeli military but instead Hamas who is using it for military purposes. Go look at what was labeled as a refugee camp and tell me that it was not an area with permanent structures. Striking legitimate targets in civilian areas is ethical, full stop. You cannot provide a legal argument otherwise and being unwilling to strike targets in those areas encourages militaries to use civilian shields further endangering civilians.
I have been involved in targeting within the conduct of warfare before. Yes, this is how it is done by the best armies on earth. It is infinitely better than indiscriminate artillery fire that preceded directed munitions. Yes, the prior solution was to level entire sections of the city in prior wars. This is not abhorrent within the context of military conflict.
I highly encourage you to look into the history of targeting approaches and see which is the more ethical approach. If you would like to compare it to other more recent conflicts with less sophisticated weapons, please look into the following.
2022 Bakhmut 2017 Mosul 1945 Manilla
Let me be completely clear. The above examples of absolute depravity are legal and ethical within armed conflict. Israel has declared war on the government of the West Bank, Hamas. They did so in reaction to a horrific terrorist attack against unarmed civilians planned and executed by real flesh and blood people and not as a result of mistaken intelligence. Israel has every right to absolutely level the West Bank as they fight to take it block for block within the laws of armed warfare. You may not like it but they do. It is not genocide. It is not a war crime. It is just simply war. It is simultaneously much worse for Palestine and much safer for Israel and that should be remembered that they are not choosing to take that approach.
They have lessened their approach to potentially minimize civilian casualties. They did not have to do this. You actively discourage them from doing this when you demonize them anyway. Why bother giving the enemy time to prepare and kill more of your forces if it does not further you towards your political goals? There is a reason why the coalition came out on the better end of the conflict in Syria instead of Russia/Assad’s government. The coalition was not indiscriminate in their targeting and Russia was.
Furthermore, every chance that they have given the Palestinian people to better their position is used as leverage to wage more war against Israel. Without the removal of Hamas, they will continue to leverage their position to conduct further attacks against Israel because they have done it continuously and increasingly since 2006. I do not envy the position they are in but I certainly understand it. It should be remembered that Israel plays by the laws of war and Hamas does not.
I too am not okay with the deaths of innocent people which is why Israel is stopping with these half-assed solutions and is going in to remove Hamas. This is a limited ground operation even though they have declared war. You are using these terms that you do not even understand. They have never claimed otherwise as an organization and have remained consistent with that in their decision-making. When they get a system in charge there that can be trusted to not literally use every resource they have to kill innocent Israelis, they can open back up the movement corridors and start working towards autonomy again like they were in 2003. I do not see a fully sovereign Palestinian state until then which I actually do believe Israel wants. They just don’t want one led by literal terrorists. A fully sovereign and stable Palestinian state is the only lasting peace that can end the bloodshed. Simply declaring Hamas full power and autonomy is a quick way to enable the spread of violence into a much wider and more deadly conflict.
Bombing a building filled with civilians just because some arsehole who help do (or did) a terrible thing is hiding in there certainly sounds like collective punishment …
Hiding amongst your own civilians when you just killed a bunch of Jewish civilians could also be considered collective punishment. They are targeting the enemy. The enemy is commiting a war crime. If Israel intentionally targeted civilians not around the enemy because they elected Hamas as their government this enabling state sponsors terrorism, it would be considered collective punishment.
I think it also depends on how it’s used. Like if it’s used to create a smokescreen or to light up a battle field, it’s not a war crime. If it’s used as an offensive weapon, especially in an area with civilians, it almost certainly is a war crime since, regardless of whether it’s a chemical weapon, there’s no real way to aim it at military targets without it raining down on civilians. At that point, it becomes a Geneva Conventions violation and every country has ratified the core of the Geneva Conventions.
Indeed. And per the above article,
One attack on the town of Dhayra on 16 October must be investigated as a war crime because it was an indiscriminate attack that injured at least nine civilians and damaged civilian objects, and was therefore unlawful
It does sounds like they just fired it at civilian locations to bolster their military actions.
9 casualties does not scream indiscriminate. Additionally the other example has 48 Hezbolla members and 4 civilians listed as casualties which also doesn’t scream indiscriminate.
Well gosh what with Russia throwing white phosphorous at Ukraine and no consequence then with Israel also appearing to do so it’s as if international law only applies to countries that aren’t nuclear states
Isreal has never acknowledged its nuclear forces, nor are they party to the NPT 🤷♂️
Well yeah, everything gets complicated when ‘laws’ come with unwritten provisos such that they don’t have enforcement except when major powers want to enforce them so they effectively only apply to certain countries
Unfortunately, ‘complicated’ seems to provide unwarranted respectability when ‘toothless’ and ‘dysfunctional’ would suffice
Israeli authorities denied that they used white phosphorus in their military operations in Gaza and Lebanon.
Seems like they’re lying. All of that taken together seems like pretty damning evidence that they do use white phosphorous shells.
White phosphorus is not considered a chemical weapon because it operates primarily by heat and flame rather than toxicity, making it an incendiary weapon. Its use is governed by Protocol III of the Convention on Conventional Weapons (CCW). Lebanon acceded to the protocol in 2017, but Israel has not.
Oh. So they’re not bound by the treaty not to use it.
Even better since Lebanon isn’t involved here. It’s the terrorist organization Hezbollah that is. Since they’re terrorists rather than a country, they’re not signed on to this either.
yeah … but if we place all of the brown people in a open air prison… cut off their water and electricity maybe a bomb or 10000… that will fix the problem
Why the fuck do you have a net positive on upvotes vs. downvotes? Wow people here are racist assholes.
