Like many of you, I woke up this morning to discover that our instance, along with lemmy.world, had been unexpectedly added to the beehaw block list. Although this development initially caught me off guard, the administrators at beehaw made an announcement shedding light on their decision.
The primary concern raised was our instance’s policy of open registration. Given my belief that the fediverse is still navigating its early stages, I believe that for it to mature, gain traction, and encourage adoption, it is crucial for instances to offer an uncomplicated and direct route for newcomers to join and participate. This was one of the reason I decided to launch this instance. However, I do acknowledge that this inclusive approach brings its unique challenges, including the potential for toxicity and trolls. Despite these hurdles, I maintain the conviction that our collective strength as a community can overcome these issues.
After this happened, the beehaw admins and I had a good chat about their decision. While our stances on registration policies might diverge, we realized that our ultimate goals are aligned: we both strive to foster communities that thrive in an atmosphere of safety and respect, where users can passionately engage in discussions and feel a sense of belonging.
Although the probability of an immediate reversal are slim given the current circumstances, I believe we have managed to identify common ground. It’s evident that, even in separation, we can unite to contribute positively to the broader fediverse community.
In the coming weeks or months, we plan to collaborate with other lemmy instance administrators to suggest enhancements and modifications to the lemmy project. Primarily, our proposals will concentrate on devising tools and features that empower us, as instance administrators, to moderate our platforms effectively.
In the meantime, while I understand may not be ideal for everyone, users who choose to participate on the beehaw instance will be required to register a separate account on their instance.
Thank you all for continuing to make this community great!
Fuck em, I applied to several different servers and it took days to get accepted. Open registration is necessary
I do acknowledge that this inclusive approach brings its unique challenges, including the potential for toxicity and trolls.
Annnnnnd there it is.
It’s almost as if they’re getting the result they were looking for. People saying they disagree with their choice are exactly the people they’re trying to avoid lol.
Brief explanation of how defederation works.
Basically Beehaw and all its communities and users are now blocking everyone from this server. We can’t post to their communities and they can’t see anything that we post on third party communities either.
However, this server has not defederated Beehaw. Therefore, we can still see their users commenting on third party communities, and we can even reply to them, they just won’t see our reply, although neutral parties will.
Both Beehaw and sh.itjust.works are still able to contribute significant activity to Lemmy as a whole, just not directly to each other for now. Let’s all be diligent on reporting and banning trolls quickly so we can maintain the collegial atmosphere here.
i joined the fediverse to shitpost, but more importantly to create a new community.
beehaw’s actions are VERY bad for the fediverse. for any social network to succeed it needs USERS. and when you have an entrenched giant, you need all the help you can get. federation is great but it also means a more spread out community which makes it hard for any one instance to succeed. what beehaw is doing is just chopping the legs off the fediverse right when it’s finding its footing.
also to an outsider, the fediverse is already confusing enough. now we can to deal with the whole “oh you can join this server and not that” and “if you join here, you can see them but they can’t see you” nonsense. closed registrations turn away people, this sort of chaos also turns away people.
i’m personally blocking all beehaw servers. i appreciate moderation is hard, and sad that trolls are coming in so early. but moderation is a solvable problem. instead of opening applications for more mods, they decided to go the cowardly route.
I get that we need more users. But allowing the communities who were here first to get torn apart is not how you do that. The beehaw users have already shown the ability to grow communities from scratch. That’s exactly the kind of people we want here.
But they also need to be given space to build those communities. This is essentially the core concept of Lemmy, that federation allows you to have large high activity communities coexisting in peace with small niche communities. You get to have both things on the same platform, because instances that come into conflict can defederate without having any impact on the network as a whole.
There are many bigger reasons that the platform is confusing, the beehaw situation doesn’t even move the needle. If anything, I think the defederation has helped many people start to understand how cool the federated structure can be.
I understand you’re frustrated they couldn’t just moderate the problem away, but seriously man, don’t be so dramatic. Beehaw is cutting the legs off the fediverse? Bro if the fediverse fails it won’t be due to the actions of beehaw, I can tell you that much.
This might be good for some folks to read here to get a better feel of what Beehaw positions themselves as and their thinking:
(What is Beehaw?)[https://beehaw.org/post/107014]
(Behaw is a community)[https://beehaw.org/post/140733]
(A few thoughts on Beehaw’s design)[https://beehaw.org/post/439918]
Edit: My assumption is that the links will open in your browser. If this isn’t the case maybe I can stick these posts in a pastebin or something, lemmy know ;)
I’m personally disappointed but don’t fault them. MY thinking is along The Dude’s - ease of participation is key, with all of the risks that entails - but that’s why I’m here rather than elsewhere.
Something I don’t think a lot of people quite get yet - this is the DIY web. Different people take different approaches to community building, some very carefully and meticulously, and others not so much. And that’s good - cool, even, IMO. Clashes are going to happen, but that’s ok.
So you can pick another instance, or spin your own, but I’d rather people come from a place of participation rather than consumption on Lemmy writ large. One of the bigger instances defederated from us? Well shit, guess we’re gonna have to make some content ourselves.
Post often, comment often, call fellow sh.it.heads (and other folks too) out if they’re acting like shitheads. Be a positive presence in the Fediverse. Make some friends. The rest will sort itself out in time.
That’s a bummer. I get it (somewhat), but I’m not really fan of that type of gatekeeping by beehaw. On the positive side, it makes me really appreciate this instance/community and makes me want to interact more on here instead. So I’m looking forward to that.
I’m not really seeing it as gatekeeping. It’s a small mod team that woke up this week to a big chunk of reddit knocking on the door.
It strikes me as reasonable to want to pause for a minute and see what the actual new user numbers will look like on the other side of the blackout.
That is understandable. But there is also the other side: When people joined Beehaw, it was under the assumption that they would be joining the lemmy community, the fediverse. Now, they unilaterally decided to silo themselves, without polling their users, without giving any heads up and without requesting more moderators… Lets not kid ourselves, we need users, the more the better. Sure, we do not need the alt-righters and the nazis and all, but we need users. We need more content in the communities. Beehaw had a significant user base, the third biggest in the Lemmy-verse I think. They just decided to block the biggest (lemmy.world). That essentially broke the userbase in 2. That is a disservice to the whole “unreddit” movement. Absolutely pathetic in my view.
I honestly hope Beehaw users leave Beehaw and join us in Lemmy (as in community, not software). I would also agree with removing Beehaw from join-lemmy. They are using Lemmy software, but they are not really using the Lemmy community. At the very least, there should be a notice regarding that in join-lemmy.
I think flexible federation is likely a good thing, and means we can have separate meta-communities with different basic attitudes, so people can be in the kind of spaces they want. My first experience of the fediverse was mastodon, and while the format wasn’t really my thing, I loved the amount of individual control it gave users over what they could see.
I wonder if there could be some kind of system to make this simpler, chunkier and less-drama, though.
What if there were:
- different individual policies that instances could subscribe to
- coalitions based on adoption of specific policy bundles, and allow-lists based on them.
- coalition-curated deny-lists of non-compliant instances.
A little bit Schengen area, a little bit NATO.
Ferinstance I can see some instances only wanting to talk to others with curated signup, curated community-creation, no-NSFW, specific political leanings etc - and I can see some instances not wanting those things. Some people may want very safe spaces, others may want in-your-face free speech. Both are reasonable (imho), and there’s no reason both sides can’t have what they want, without it having to be a big deal.
Possibly this could be layered, I haven’t worked out the mechanics yet - but even if you have groups around rules ABCDE, AB, ACE, BCD, etc - it would still help set and stabilise people’s expectations, and help them reach consensus, preferably with a bigger granularity than single servers - and reduce the number of nasty surprises down the track.
I don’t like the idea of coalitions at all. To me it feels like the coalitions would become very “us vs them”, i.e. you must defederate all instances that allow any topic in this list or we will defederate you. It leaves no neutral ground, creates echo chambers, and deepens the political divide that plagues our society.
IMO it’s better if
- Lemmy allows individual users to block all communities from an instance or all users from an instance, sort of like defederation but per-user.
- Instances have the rule that “when you interact with other instances/communities, you must follow all their rules, or we will suspend your cross-instance posting rights for X days”.
Then instances can act like neutral infrastructure/identity providers and each user can decide exactly how they want to interact with the fediverse without causing fragmentation.
Serious question: What is the alternative to open registration? Invite-only? What is the expectation?
Seems a bit kneejerk to defederate, that’s employing the nuclear option as the first step. It doesn’t leave a lot of room for dialog.
Why? What would you even check?
It’s not like you can interview the person and check their ID, etc. - it’s just meaningless bureaucracy that stifles growth.
From what I understand, it’s ‘did this human read what we’re about here and respond in a way that demonstrates they know what they’re signing onto’?
At minimum, it weeds out folks who don’t take the time to write a couple sentences, and kinda acts like a crappy lock on a door. If someone’s determined to start some nonsense, it’s not hard to get in and try. But a lot of folks will try the door once, see it doesn’t open right away, and fuck off. They don’t want growth for growth’s sake, so the fact that this stifles growth to a degree isn’t a concern.
But yeah, I agree it doesn’t scale very well.
