Countries like Switzerland don’t have mass shootings like the USA, yet they have tons of guns. The lack of mental health support and the orphan crushing machine are a HUGE part of the mass murders here in America.
The rates of gun ownership between Switzerland and the USA are vastly different. USA ownership is almost double that of Switzerland.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21379912
I’m not denying your take that it’s a multifaceted issue, but equating the gun ownership between Switzerland and the USA doesn’t paint an accurate picture.
Despite the USA having double the gun ownership that Switzerland does, the USA has more than 20 times the number of mass shootings. There’s definitely more to this issue:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_Switzerland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
If we’re throwing out Wikipedia links, here are the actual laws in Switzerland, many of which the pro-gun community in America staunchly oppose adopting, including the mandatory military service that would actually qualify gun owners to be part of a “well regulated militia”.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Switzerland
The Swiss also don’t celebrate weapons as much as the US Americans.
I struggle to find the correct word. Celebrate isn’t it, but I’m too tired to think about a better one and I don’t want to start a comment war here. You’ll probably understand what I meant.
The Swiss also have compulsory military service (at least for men) where they theoretically teach you how to use and presumably not be a dummy with your gun.
Also do Switzerland have carry laws? If everyone left their firearms at home it would be much less of an issue too.
You also need a permit to buy a gun. Shall-issue for most of the guns I’d categorize as more reasonable, but still need to put in for the permit. Automatics have quite stringent requirements on their may-issue permits. High-cap magazines are not available. Universal registration & background check and “red flag”-style blocks on any purchases.
Ammo is also included in these rules, essentially.
Second-hand sales require a paper trail conforming to many of these rules with a decade-long statute of limitations to prove legitimate transfer that is also reported to the state authority.
Storage methods are regulated. Failure to report a lost/stolen weapon to police is bad news for you.
You need a permit to carry which is mostly only given to people who have occupational need to carry – like the old NYC law where you have to state a plausible need. Otherwise, when and where you can carry is limited to basically sport or similar events.
And there’s more. Not to mention their culture of training and safety around it because of their military and militia requirements.
I’m all for imposing Swiss-style gun rules on the US. It would restrict guns a lot. The people who appeal to how great they are with guns and how it is “proof” that gun restrictions aren’t a good solution just haven’t even done basic research about what the gun situation actually is in Switzerland.
I think a large part of it is the politicization of firearms that has made gun ownership a lifestyle choice for unstable people.
You’ve got a bunch of crazy conspiracy theorists being told that the liberals are out to kill their god and take their weapons, so they stock up on weapons that they use when they finally crack.
We’ve manufactured a system where the mentally unstable are actively encouraged to arm themselves.
I use the word ‘clutch’ often, as a baby with a blanket or an old nerd with vi. They’re unwilling to find a better solution than a gun, and the gun lobby tells us it’s all okay as long as we have our Glock.
…come to think of it, so much rap music seemed to do the same, for awhile.
This. I’m a liberal and I definitely think we need tighter restrictions on guns in the U.S., but people today seem to have forgotten that we’ve had essentially the same gun laws for forever and mass shootings have only been a weekly occurrence for about 10-15 years. It’s not the guns or the gun laws or even mental health issues (depending on how you want to define them); it’s some fucked up aspects of our culture.
It’s multiple issues:
- Lack of access to mental health services.
- 24/7 commercial news geared more towards fear than information with no fair and balanced doctrine for reporting.
- A widening wealth gap depriving those at the bottom of the income ladder the dignity of a stable life.
- Private ownership of said media suppressing unfavourable stories.
- Civil forfeiture and warrior cop training creating a mafia attitude in US Police departments.
- A lack of realisation that the historical context for gun ownership in the US was to keep the natives off the land cliamed by a settler because the British didn’t want to repeat Spain’s mistakes.
- More willing to accept licensing and denial of access to a car as punishment for breaking driving laws despite that the car is more fundamental to existing in modern US than the Gun.
- Treating the constitution like a holy manuscript rather than it’s original purpose of being updated/replaced every 5 to 10 years.
- A broken electoral system in dire need of reform.
- Underfunding education.
- Lobbying so rampant they might as well host the bidding for Washington representatives on eBay.
The list is very very long. The USA’s cultural fabric that is the people’s common heritage is being stretched and torn by those who believe they can make a profit from the scraps.
The USA is a young anglophile country, you’ve only had one civil war, I reckon you’ve got at least another one coming.
More willing to accept licensing and denial of access to a car as punishment for breaking driving laws despite that the car is more fundamental to existing in modern US than the Gun.
Licensing to carry exists in most states, though some have removed that. We also do typically remove access to guns (or at least the CCW depending on state and infraction) as punishment for breaking gun laws.
Agreed. The root cause is multifaceted. People seem to ignore the fact that the shooters are almost 100 percent male, with the vast majority being disaffected loners, white, and young. What has caused these men and boys to fantasize about killing masses of people? It’s far more complicated than folks like to admit. We want a simple scapegoat, so we blame guns.
Using your timeline of mass shooting increases, an immediate reason to consider should be the assault weapon law expiring in 2004. Data would back that up. We haven’t had the same laws forever. https://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2022/06/15/did-the-assault-weapons-ban-of-1994-bring-down-mass-shootings-heres-what-the-data-tells-us/
Your own source shows that mass shootings weren’t as high as they are now prior to the assault weapons ban, thus demonstrating it wasn’t repeal of the law that caused the recent uptick. If it was, we’d see a similar amount of mass shootings prior to its enactment as well.
I’m a liberal and I definitely think we need tighter restrictions on guns in the U.S., but people today seem to have forgotten that we’ve had essentially the same gun laws for forever
Sure but the same party that works so hard against increased legislation for gun control gutted our mental health infrastructure and votes against funding and rebuilding it at every opportunity. They aren’t interested in solving either end of the problem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_Health_Systems_Act_of_1980
https://sociology.org/content/vol003.004/thomas.html
This last one is a ddg search - you can just pick which article you want to read about Republicans voting against mental health funding.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=republicans+vote+against+mental+health+funding
You’re missing my point. Mental health issues aren’t the primary problem when it comes to firearm violence and deaths. Republican resistance to laws that attempt to address mental health issues deserves pointing out, but not so much in this context, because that’s not the main issue at hand. Liberals can be commended for attempting to do something about the problem more than Republicans are, but what I’ve seen of their views on the topic indicates to me that they too are missing the point. The problem isn’t guns or severe psychiatric problems; there’s a cultural element that no one (including Democrats, for some reason) aren’t willing to address. Until we identify and focus on the actual problem, no progress will be made, because we’ll just continue to fight about stuff that isn’t that relevant.
Exactly. Access to guns isn’t the issue, lack of education and failed parenting is. I’m pretty fucking liberal but even in the single generation I’ve been alive I’m pretty sure parenting has gotten significantly worse. I go out of my way to make sure my kids let me know if stuff is bothering them and explain how to respond to things that frustrate them. I’m sure this is going to go into parents working 24/7 but that also isn’t anything new.
seem to have forgotten that we’ve had essentially the same gun laws for forever
this completely disregards the Assault Weapons ban and it’s repeal. Which match with the numbers in a stark manner.
Okay fine, it’s some fucked up aspect of American culture. Honestly, blame it on whatever you want because until that problem is fixed, the current gun laws are clearly inadequate and need to be immediately addressed.
They can have their dogshit gun laws back when they’ve finished solving the problem, be it mental health or Marilyn Manson.
They can have their dogshit gun laws back when they’ve finished solving the problem
You don’t mean that though. No liberals do. That’s why conservatives won’t budge on this issue, because they know whatever ground they give will never return and liberals will always be pushing for more.
And honestly, the mass shooting stuff is our best chance at convincing conservatives to change, because they’re actually occasionally affected by that crap. Even with the increases in mass shootings, the vast majority of gun violence is down to crime, which mostly affects poor, non-White people living in urban areas.
This issue is really complex. It’s affected by different cultures in the U.S., political alignments, demographics and wealth levels. The mental health stuff is only really relevant if you’re talking about how psychological and sociological issues contribute to extremism and social isolation, but most people just picture some schizo on a bad day, which is a microscopic drop in the bucket (and most people with severe mental illnesses like schizophrenia are not actually vioelnt, that’s a bad stereotype).
I understand why most liberals want to get rid of guns; it’s just that that’s not actually the problem, and conservatives know it, so they fight back hard and we get nowhere. Sadly, I think more conservatives have to become victims before there’s any traction in terms of putting appropriate safety measures in place that still afford conservatives the freedom to practice their favorite hobby.
So it goes. Meanwhile, we’re killing the planet. Small potatoes in the long run…
I underestimated the Marilyn Manson problem, which itself is a massive issue with attention-whore narcissists in general but distilled into a no-talent onanist fame-whore of almost (kan)ye proportions.
We need to remove these people to a safe space - safe for us - and resolve the issues clinically before returning them.
Huge difference between Switzerland and the US. Switzerland has a lot of weapons because, more or less, everyone is in the army and they keep their service weapons at home. And there are very strict rules regulating those weapons as opposed to the non-existent regulation in the US.
Switzerland has pretty restrictive laws about the ammunition that people use in their guns as well. Most of the gun owners have little to no ammo available to them at any given time. And most of those Swiss gun owners have also been conscripted into the armed forces and been through rigorous training and the use of firearms.
Can confirm. You can see more about Switzerland’s gun control here:
From Switzerland: “Depending on the type of weapon, you will require a sales contract, a weapon acquisition permit or an exemption permit.”
Semi-automatic weapons require a permit, and fully automatic weapons and firearms with large capacity magazines are banned and only allowed under special, petition able circumstamces.
–
For military service issued weapons: The Swiss don’t allow their citizens access to ammunition (they used to issue a single magazine IIRC), all weapons are only distributed based on compulsory military service, and are to remain locked away except for when transported to the firing range for your annual qualification or practice.
Also, I do t think they allow swiss to keep their rifles anymore; I believe they are currently stored in the armory.
I just read the entire article, and as a left leaning voter, the article was poorly written with factual issues and misinformation.
It now makes me want to buy the Ruger SFAR to protect myself from the violent right wing MAGA morons.
As a progressive Democrat, that’s my #1 reason for being a gun owner.
I don’t want these assholes being the only people armed:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Prayer
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proud_Boys
Which is sad, because the only winners are the gun manufacturers. They want you to fear your neighbors
I WISH they were our neighbors. They are out of towners who come here purely to stir up trouble, AND, in many cases, they’re actively working WITH the police. So it’s not like you can expect the cops to do anything.
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/portland-police-proud-boys-training-1290583/
https://theintercept.com/2021/08/23/portland-police-proud-boys-protest/
You forgot
Which once activated will only be stopped by bullets.
Now THIS is attitude all the super left anti gunners on Lemmy should have !!
We are waaaay psst the point of even trying to get rid of guns. You might as well leverage their existence agaisnt the ones who already picked them up and swole violence/allegiances to that traitor.
I can’t actually tell if that’s meant to be satire, but I doubt the people upvoting you can either. So just to be safe…
Congratulations, you’ve fallen for the same idiot hero fantasies as the right-wing gun cultists have. The gun lobby wrote a version of them just for you and you swallowed it without a single critical thought.
Do you know who is going to win when you and the MAGA morons face off with your cool guns?
Whoever is the biggest piece of shit, just like always.
You’re right, the multiple white supremacist militia groups that have been charged with seditious conspiracy for their attempt to overthrow the government at the behest of the previous president trying to desperately cling to power is just a boogeyman created by the gun lobby
If you think it’s the gun lobbyists who’re making the right wing extremists look like violent, dangerous fascists, you really really have not been paying attention
I really enjoyed this comment. Not because it was in any way insightful or entertaining, but because you couldn’t actually create a logical link from my comment to your own, but you were so desperate to push exactly the propaganda I was talking about that you went ahead and posted it anyway.
You’re right, the multiple white supremacist militia groups that have been charged with seditious conspiracy for their attempt to overthrow the government at the behest of the previous president trying to desperately cling to power is just a boogeyman created by the gun lobby
Yet here you are, leaping to the defense of the companies (and laws they’ve written) that sell those groups all the semi-automatic weapons their black little hearts desire.
I wonder who is the most grateful for your service?
The violent, dangerous far-right extremists that are responsible for the majority of mass shootings and actively target minorities with them?
The gun lobby members banking record profits even as mass shootings, domestic homicides and impulse murders surge?
The Republicans who have been enjoying $16 million a year in open bribes ever since Sandy Hook doubled them, plus a small army of single-issue voters who will tolerate any amount of bigotry, stupidity, oppression and exploitation as long as gun safety remains optional?
Or the minorities who are told “If you don’t want to be murdered then buy more guns and carry them with you everywhere and be ready to kill another person at any moment”, like that’s an existence aspired to by anybody except bloodthirsty gun-owners (and one that isn’t a requirement in any other wealthy, progressive country with functional gun laws)?
Nobody outside of a deeply stupid, easily manipulated and heavily astroturfed pocket of social media believes you’re helping anybody besides extremists, greedy psychopaths and yourself.
You won’t go down in history with the likes of climate change deniers, you’ll go down in history with the people who claimed that “I only want what’s best for black people and that’s actually being enslaved by white men”.
When there are 24 million guns of that type sold and only a handful used illegally each year, is that really a problem on the manufacturer though?
Seems like the vast, vast, majority of them are used legally or simply not used at all.
When your product’s only use is to commit mass murder and you advertise it as making you an invincible badass then yes.
Your point is irrelevant. “Only a tiny fraction of the land mines I placed outside a school killed any children.”
That’s the thing, that’s NOT the only use for the platform. If it were, it wouldn’t be the best selling rifle in the US.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/america-s-rifle-why-so-many-people-love-ar-15-n831171
The primary reason for choosing one is weight.
My grandfathers Remington 721 weighs 8.4 pounds (3.8kg), carries 4 rounds, and in .30-06 is arguably a stronger caliber than the .223 in an AR platform.
My Henry .45-70, the caliber rated for all big game in North America (and jokingly rated by Marlin for T-Rex), weighs 8.1 pounds (3.67kg) and carries 4+1 rounds.
Something like the Ruger AR556 weighs a relatively svelte 6.5 pounds (2.95kg) and comes stock with a 30 round capacity, making it easier to carry.
I know, I know, 1.9 pounds (0.86kg) doesn’t SOUND like a lot, but it FEELS a lot heavier when you’re marching around the woods with a rifle strap digging into your shoulder.
And being able to pick up something fast and use it in a home defense situation makes all the difference in the world.
And make no mistake about it, the Supreme Court has ruled over and over that the primary reason for the 2nd Amendment is self defense.
(2008)
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/554/570/
“Private citizens have the right under the Second Amendment to possess an ordinary type of weapon and use it for lawful, historically established situations such as self-defense in a home, even when there is no relationship to a local militia.”
(2010)
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/561/742/
“The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment extends the Second Amendment’s right to keep and bear arms to the states, at least for traditional, lawful purposes such as self-defense.”
(2016)
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/577/14-10078/
“the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding,”
(2022)
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/597/20-843/
the "constitutional right to bear arms in public for self-defense is not a second-class right, subject to an entirely different body of rules than the other Bill of Rights guarantees.” The exercise of other constitutional rights does not require individuals to demonstrate to government officers some special need.
A huge comment, but I fail to find what you consider other uses beside what you commented on.
But honest question, why do you buy a gun like that if you’re never ever going to use it? For what purpose do people buy these things anyway?
If police and proud boys have them…
I do use mine for target practice though. I shot competitively when I was younger and really appreciate the skill aspect. I have fond memories of my grandpa teaching me how to shoot, but hunting has never been on my radar.
January sixth, probably played a pretty big role in me actually “pulling the trigger” tbh. That and a PB demonstration down the street from me.
If I was honest, it’s basically a super dangerous bowling ball to me.
Sorry I’m seeing your reply after writing a veritable essay to someone else above you. :)
But the primary reasons are weight and self defense.
A traditional hunting rifle has a stronger caliber, but is around 2 pounds heavier and has a lower capacity.
In terms of self defense, you want a lighter weight and a higher capacity. Makes it easier to carry, easier to control, and easier to defend yourself against multiple intruders, something which, unfortunately, has happened multiple times:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/home-invader-fatally-shot-florida-pregnant-woman-ar-15-n1076026
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/oklahoma-man-uses-ar-15-kill-three-teen-home-intruders-n739541
Quick! While you’re doing numbers, compare the number of times a gun didn’t “solve” that problem vs the number of times a gun was misused and someone died. False-negative vs false-positive. It’s just numbers and not relevant, but see how it goes.
With all the guns around in US I am genuenly surprised that most of these shooters just go on random killing sprees instead of political assasinations. In japan a DYI gun was enough to kill former prime minister Shinzo Abe so would think country so divided as United states would have far more of these cases.
Guess the people on top truly are untouchable at least for most of the time.
Most people like their politician. When they are polled about Congress and rate it unsatisfactory, it’s because they want all of Congress to be like their rep (or exactly their rep’s opposite, if they’re a minority voter in the area).
It’s a lot easier to assassinate your local rep than it is to shoot a senator from West Virginia or whatever, so the impulse to kill them is lower. Add in their significantly greater security and you can see how this lessons the odds of attempted assassinations.
They may like their politician but that still leaves out a lot of the congress who they may dislike and target with their radicalized outrage.
But yeah the fact that these people are protected by greater (armed) security the chance for failure is far greater.
But still quite surprised how little actions or lack of have backfired on people in power.
Guess things will need to get way worse for more shit to start piling on their backyards.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The industry’s alpha-male sales pitches promise buyers the power to “control your destiny.” According to law-enforcement records, Card had been haunted by phantom voices — including taunts that he had a “small dick.” The Ruger SFAR, with its thick barrel, is marketed without subtlety as “Bigger and Stronger Where It Needs to Be.”
Wilson Combat sells the “Urban Super Sniper.” Franklin Armory markets assault rifles in its “Militia Series.” An ad from Patriot Ordnance Factory-USA features a hooded man with an AR-15 standing in the ruins of a city, with the tagline “When corrupt politics fail, our guns won’t.”
But it doesn’t take many people to execute a military mission, to shatter families and communities, and create national panic and anxiety.” In the case of Card, Koskoff adds, “He’s one person, one weapon — and the entire state of Maine was frozen.”
(The AR prefix stands for “Armalite Rifle.”) The Pentagon sought an infantry weapon that was light, lethal, and versatile — that could match the “killing power” of the bulky, World War II-era M1 in close combat, but still be capable of “penetrating a steel helmet or standard body armor at 500 yards.”
But in a quest to make the rifle lighter and more maneuverable, it developed the AR-15, with smaller rounds — fired at extraordinary velocity to create “maximum wound effect.” Though marketed today with a cachet of manhood, the military prized the AR platform because its feather weight and minimal recoil were well-suited for the “small stature of the Vietnamese” allies whose “average soldier,” one document stated, “stands five feet tall and weighs 90 pounds.”
The department then sent regional law-enforcement agencies a warning that Card “made threats to shoot up the National Guard armory in Saco” and was “committed over the summer … due to his altered mental health state.” It advised that he should be approached with “extreme caution.”
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