I just want to vent a bit - I started seeing someone a few weeks ago. Old fling that I ran into through some friends that got rekindled, and I was excited that it seemed like more than just casual hookups this time. But there were some yellow flags I ignored that turned out to be red flags, and now I’m feeling frustrated and hurt.
Dude for real dropped the line that men are more “capable” and “logical” on me. That gender studies are “indoctrination.” I told him we should probably stop seeing each other if that’s really what he thinks. It wouldn’t be logical for me to keep seeing someone that thinks lesser of me, now, would it?
I’m grateful to have some guy friends that I turned to after I left, cuz I wanted to go into “fuck all men” mode, but I know it’s not true or helpful. Just like there are women out there that have internalized misogyny, there’s feminist men, enbies, etc. We’re all just people and we’re not monoliths beholden to differences in biology. This is just sexist, manosphere bullshit in particular
Anyway. I’m still feeling angry and wanted to put it out there for some support and solidarity. Anyone have a recent win they’d like to share or something?
ETA: Thank you so much for the conversation y’all! I’ve been trying to keep up but I gotta get some sleep. I’ll check in later but hope everyone has a good day. Keep up the empowerment! 💜
I don’t know where they get this idea that treating women as lesser is somehow attractive*. I had one once tell me that I was lucky to have a pretty face because my body would put most men off, and then he expected to get laid. Like, what? My dude that is not how any of this works.
But experiences like this help us learn to spot those red flags earlier. And frankly it can also be a self-esteem boost, like you clearly respect yourself enough to have kicked this guy to the curb and that’s something to feel great about! You know you’re worthy of better and that you didn’t bring this on yourself. Meanwhile he’s just got another in probably a long line of romantic failures that are entirely of his own doing.
Have to admit, and I don’t mean to pry, but I am SO curious how he responded when you laid it out logically for him like that.
Anyway, solidarity. So much solidarity.
* well ok, I do know. but it’s very very silly.
I don’t know where they get this idea that treating women as lesser is somehow attractive*.
Quite simply, men like this are not looking for a partner, they are looking for a servant they can fuck.
They have not progressed past adolescent dominance games.
Good on Op for walking away.
Oh, that line I gave him about logic was one of the last things I said as I finished picking up my stuff to walk out the door. I followed up with “it’s been fun - good luck.” He had just kept digging in and I told him I’m not taking it upon myself to educate him. He can read a book or two about it
Thank you for sharing your experience, though it fucking sucks. You’re right that I do feel empowered for recognizing my worth. Just hate that it’s coming from mistreatment, you know? Here’s to finding empowerment through healthy means and healthy partners 💜
Good on you for walking.
I told him I’m not taking it upon myself to educate him. He can read a book or two about it
As a guy who has seen several women friends fall for the “I can change him” mindset, well done. It is not your job to fix the world view of a person who does not want to.
I remember an old joke:
“How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb?”
‘One, but the light bulb has got to want to change.’
I know it sucks right now but at least he showed his cards early and you didn’t have to waste too much time on him.
So funny that he didn’t see the logic at hiding his misogynistic world view. The point, i guess, was not to school you on logic but to test how much crap you’d put up with.
I hope he actually took a moment or two of self reflection and understands that he himself was not displaying much logic in the relationship. Who knows, maybe he’ll even question one or two of his misogynistic beliefs.
I’m sorry you had to put up with that but at least you’ve learned what to look out for.
Fuck yeah lol you’re a badass. I would stammer something about needing to go and think of all that in the shower later.
Nor mine. I’ve had a lot of women talk to me about their relationship goals, perhaps because I’m gay so they know I’m a disinterested third party. I’ve never had anyone confide in me that they like the company of abusive assholes. Quite the contrary, in fact.
What I have noticed are a lot of guys who think they’re nice to women, but really aren’t. I’ve also seen men who project a completely fabricated persona to women, acting polite and caring, but being the most vicious untrustworthy backstabbers in the room – e.g., being extremely polite and civil to the woman, but then telling me they can’t wait to get into her pants, etc., the moment she’s out of earshot.
I’m not going to speak about humans because that’s too contentious. But anthropology has lots of study of primate partner selection and genetic outcomes. Were they measure based on reproductive success. If you look at the genetic data, you’ll see that there is a bimodal approach to sexual selection in primates.
The old trope is: males maximize the reproductive success by having a diverse set of partners, and investing in only a few. Females maximize the reproductive success by having relatively few partners and maximizing investment in a few offspring. But in both scenarios diversifying the genetic material gives you a higher probability of a successful outcome. Interestingly in primates teste size is directly related to the promiscuity of the species. So bonobos have very large testes, and orangutan’s relatively small testes. Because they have less sperm competition.
If this kind of research interest you, I highly recommend taking a look at an anthropology primate sexual selection course, or at least the reading for one.
So where people get into a lot of contentious trouble is humans have opinions, and the research done on primates does not necessarily correlate with the behavior of humans, and it’s easy to take some research and make broad sweeping generalizations about behavior and etc.
So this is where applying the bimodal sexual incentives, the manosphere latched on and said, it maximizes the reproductive success of a female to find a stable social partner, but to get diverse hybridized genes from short-term sexual partners. i.e. the abd boy attraction is due to this bimodal sexual preference. I have no idea if this actually applies to humans, it’s an interesting theory, but no research ethics board is ever going to allow for a study on this.
Interestingly there were species of birds that were thought to be monogamous, but with the advent of cheap genetic testing, proved that the bird species followed this bimodal sexual model even though they had a nominal social partner. Super interesting data
It is over the top but unfortunately i have seen it with my old friends and certainly coworkers. Especially the really lonely desperate women all flock to the louder, flamboyent type men. I think it is simply that they want someone who gives them attention, loudly. This way they feel loved and everyone knows that they are loved, unfortunately everyone else can see these men for what they are.
select mates
Where are you picking up that kind of lingo for human interactions, friend? Maybe it’s just a quirk of yours, but I only ever see this kind of language from incels and incel circles, and it’s not just the “mate” line, but the whole of your post
So I’ll opine. You’re seeing something that’s confirming to a preconceived notion. Not gonna say there are no women who don’t like their bad boys or actually toxic people–god knows I know some of those women–but it is hardly the standard, and your anecdotal accounts mean you’re subject to things like social class and circles, culture, and region. Besides that, it could still be plainly untrue what you see, but its possible you are only even registering the women who fit this idea. There could be 20 women in happy, healthy relationships, but you’re not thinking about them. You’re only considering the woman in a toxic relationship, and when you try and recall the dynamics you know, only thos come to mind
This is fairly common mindset for incels, red-pillers, that whole group. They’ll talk about how easy it is for women to have sex, but it’s because their idea of women is already “something to have sex in”, so they’re not open to the idea that there are plenty of women who do struggle with dating
And besides that, who are you to judge the men they’re with? You say they’ll avoid 10 awesome dudes for [cavalcade of generic reactionary insults], but are those 10 dudes really awesome? You’re not dating them, nor do you have a woman’s lived experience to watch out for certain yellow or red flags that those men may clearly be displaying. Alternatively, maybe what makes an awesome dude to you is not actually what makes them awesome to women. Maybe the guys you’re calling bad boys aren’t as bad as you think, is what I’m saying
Or yeah, maybe you’ve just seen and know a bunch of women who have made some poor choices. For whatever reason, it does happen, after all. Women are not immune to subscribing to ideas of toxic masculinity, and we can be vicious about it. We shouldn’t, but we can
Juts try and make sure that whatever spaces you’re occupying, especially the kind you’re picking up that incel jargon from, you think critically about what they’re saying. It is so incredibly easy to get sucked into the manosphere
If it helps anything, I can imagine men usually assume they are as an individual more logical and capable than other men as well. Projecting this on women is just even easier as other man will agree.
I agree with this thought and it’s precisely men that aren’t smart enough (or narcissistic af) who come up with this idea
Uhhh… I mean, not to defend this asshole, but isn’t this just as sexist a thought?
I think you may be interpreting “men” as all men, but I think the post meant, “precisely men that aren’t smart enough (or narcissistic af)”
That is, the men who say things like this tend to be men that aren’t smart enough or are simply too narcissistic to realize it’s wrong.
Yes! I had noticed he was being a dick to his roommate at one point, who’s our mutual friend. Really caught me off guard. Fucked up product of how men can be socialized in sexist societies. I just feel bad for everyone in that dynamic, even the guys putting others down, cuz they think it’ll help them get their needs met but it just shoots them in the foot. And of course victims don’t deserve that treatment to begin with. We should be lifting each other up, validating that we’re all capable and logical
Or at least, we are all capable of being incapable and illogical. We are all just human after all.
Fwiw, on social media, if one doesn’t obviously show which gender they are, they will usually be assumed to be a male. There are more women around here than some people think, and they are always adressed as bro, homie, dude, my man, and so on. So, apparently, the differences are not always as obvious as some people assume. Edited a word to correct english
I’ve actually used this before to argue with someone about gender v sex, and it can be fun when I’m not romantically interested lol. Just play into it on anonymous accounts that they can’t know your gender, so why assign it at all if it’s not explicitly stated? The person I argued with eventually admitted they were just scared of making a mistake in social settings, so I encouraged them to practice. It doesn’t take that long to get used to, and it’s exactly how you prevent mistakes!
But then I added in another comment, we’re human and there’s room for error. It’s the people that intentionally misgender that are the assholes
My own username explicitly alludes to my gender and I still get called a man about half the time. I don’t really care or anything, but I think it’s funny
In my experience, the real thought bubble is probably closer to “Look at all these people who have their shit so together. I’m such a loser. I hope they can’t figure out that I’m faking it.”
Edit to add:
The people who really are losers (as opposed to just believing they are) put others down to try to build themselves up.
Good on you. Next time you want to go “fuck all men” remember that would be stooping as low as a misogynist, only on the other side of the road.
The silver lining is that pain helps people see flag’s true colours better. So you will (I hope) not waste time with someone else showing similar warning signs next time.
There’s technically not a single wrong word with your comment in my opinion. But, respectfully, don’t you feel it reads as a bit condescending and admonishing? Especially when rereading the OP and then your comment in succession. The OP said they just wanted to vent a little here but then go on to barely vent at all: they just say they ‘wanted to go into “fuck all men” mode’ but didn’t since they know it’s not true or helpful. As I read it they just felt the (understandable) initial frustration but immediately worked through that feeling like an adult.
Yes, that’s actually why I didn’t reply to them. The first part of the comment comes across like they didn’t read what I wrote directly after, and I’m not interested in repeating myself or getting defensive over having a brief reactionary response to emotional abuse. Thank you 💜
Well I’m sorry it came across that way. I’m not trying to attack you or upset you at all, just hoping to give you a different perspective on why what you did was right. I repeat, what you did was right. I’m glad you have a solid support group irl now and I hope you keep it for life, but from experience that’s not always the case for everyone, and there is also the unfortunate possibility you may have a bad experience with a partner again- which I hope you don’t. But if you do find yourself in that situation, I’m hoping my previous comment helps you see you are better prepared to face such situation again in the future.
I didn’t mean to be condescending or admonishing. Of course OP knows better. OP also mentioned she has a good support group which is what helped in this case. But from experience, sometimes groups and friends come and go, and so do problems with partners. I’m only hoping my comment helps OP see why they were right in doing what they did and maybe give a different perspective to someone else reading the comments.
The “win” is that I see much less if that kind of discourse on Lemmy.
Sorry for you, OP
Honestly, back on Reddit I also didn’t see much of this, at least not sorting by highest upvoted.
As a guy I sometimes want to bash some dumb heads over with a big pole… And on the other hand, in a bizarre turn of events, I’m strangely “glad” that so many men don’t know shit about basic decency and manners (and hygiene and what else women have to endure during dates) - that leaves a lot of nice and successful dating opportunities to the better part of the male population!
Bad joke, I know, the topic has too many dark aspects. Take all that with apologies for all the shit that comes from toxic “manhood” - there’s too much misogyny, aggression and violence from frustrated men. My mother was subjected to that, and her children suffered a lot from her violent partners. I’ve seen it, and I hate it, and in that way it helped me become more sensitive to the female side of my life.
Besides that: There’s a lot of good stories regarding dating and relationships. I see dating as an adventure where I get to know interesting people - and interesting can be anything, the nice and the not so nice parts of the world. At least the guy showed you his true colours early in the game so there’s not much time lost (I’m a very practical guy, can you tell?). Take your time to shake off the experience, and then start dating again. It somehow is a number game - you don’t have to kiss all the frogs in the pond to find an appropriate partner but staying at home won’t definitely help find one.
At last an advice from experience (by female friends and by myself): Have sex as early as suitable and as possible when dating and “check the goods”. Sex is one of the core aspects of a relationship (in my eyes it’s the core aspect), and even the nicest guy will not satisfy your needs longtime (!) if the sex is stale or boring or one-sided (I could tell a lot of bizarre stories from female friends about their experiences with that) - and that can make the relationship stale or boring or one-sided. And please don’t try to “fix” any guy in that regard (especially when he is immune to real improvements on his side) - it may turn out that “fixing” wastes your time and your energy, you already have heard that warning.
Have fun :)
Thanks! I got out of a long-term relationship a few months ago, so this was my first dip back in the water. It was a good reminder of why I ended the last relationship. I don’t want to settle, don’t want to waste time hoping it’ll change or that I can fix something. I want the best for myself and those around me. But I know the best way is to just keep putting myself out there when I’m ready. I’m excited, too! It definitely can be fun
Thank you for sharing your experience. It sucks, but I’m glad you’re having fun now, too 💜
