With Meta starting to actually implement ActivityPub, I think it would be a good idea to remind everyone of what they are most likely going to do.
Man, I’m not gonna relitigate this but no, Google Talk didn’t kill XMPP. XMPP is not, in fact, dead. WhatsApp killed Google Talk and pretty much every other competitor and XMPP would have been in that boat with or without Google Talk.
This is gonna keep coming up, it’s gonna keep being wrong and I’m really not gonna bother picking this fight each and every single time.
This needs to be higher for visibility. The story of Google killing XMPP is a good one but it’s utterly bullshit. XMPP was a mess, Google didn’t kill it, it killed itself by having fucked ecosystem that didn’t do anything better than numerous proprietary standards at the time.
It’s not like XMPP was EVER dominant, nor was Google talk - even man messenger was more popular at the time and that’s also dead.
Well, people like to think that the fediverse is a genuine threat to Meta. And they like to feel they’re doing important work defending it from Meta. So this will indeed pop up again, and again, and again.
I mean I think it will be if they really to end up federating. Why sign up for an ad-ridden data-hoarding service when you can use services that don’t have that nonsense but still allows you to do all the things you want to do on social media?
You saying that XMPP is not dead?
Name 10 active generalist servers.
No, really, it would be good to know. I haven’t been able to find active XMPP communities since ca. 2015.
Both you and the writer claim to have been there back then, but have wildly different ideas for what happened… Were you a dev on XMPP too?
An XMPP developer would likely have been delusional about the protocol he himself developed. But at the time I can assure you XMPP was completely irrelevant. AIM/ICQ/MSN/Yahoo! and maybe IRC were the tools of the day back then.
Because of actual competition (which XMPP had absolutely no part in) multi protocol messengers had their golden age then.
Oh, absolutely not. Let me be clear, I do not question that the author was involved in the project and interacted with Google. I do not question any of the factual details in the article and my argument is not that he’s lying. Total respect for him, his work at the time and even his opinions on how annoying and frustrating it was working with Google around.
What I’m saying is his perspective on the alleged failure of XMPP is specifically biased by his insider experience, that many of the examples he gives do not apply to AP, that the process he describes there is not EEE, that it’s not the reason XMPP and Google Talk failed and that, as he admits throughout the piece, XMPP didn’t in fact disappear or “die” after Talk’s failure or because of their intervention.
Did you bother to read the article or did you only decide to write this argument w/o any substantial basis?
Oh, I read it when it came out back in June. Many times, as it kept being shared as an explanation of the first Threads backlash.
It’s full of incorrect assessments and false equivalences.
Threads doesn’t really have the volume (yet) to subsume ActivityPub. The process it describes for standards drifting towards the corporate actor doesn’t apply to ActivityPub, which is engineered from the ground up to support multiple apps with differnent functionality (hence me writing this in Kbin and others reading it in Lemmy and being able to link it and follow it from Mastodon), the article only acknowledges that XMPP survived and kept on going at the very end as a throwaway and doesn’t justify how it “never recovered” and, like I said, it doesn’t acknowledge the real reasons Talk and every Google successor to Talk struggled and collapsed.
So yes, I read it. Past the headline and everything. I just didn’t take it at face value. This piece keeps getting shared because XMPP wasn’t ever that big to begin with, so this sounds erudite and informed while the similar arguments being made at the time about SMTP and RSS were more obviously identifiable as being wrong for the same reasons.
which is engineered from the ground up to support multiple apps with differnent functionality (hence me writing this in Kbin and others reading it in Lemmy and being able to link it and follow it from Mastodon)
I mean that’s basically what every protocol is. ActivityPub abstracts concepts, that apps implement in their own way (for example the concept of group). If you manage to deliver changes, even improvements, to the protocol, apps need to keep up and comply with it. This is what means “drifting towards the corporate actor”. I propose changes to the protocol to a rate that only me (the corporate actor) can keep up with. This way only my users will have certain features and eventually some apps will become incompatible with the recent version(s) of the protocol.
fwiw, XMPP/Slack/Discord/etc basically solve the same problem that IRC already solved. Software Engineers just reinvent the wheel again and again as everyone loves a green field.
That said, Meta cannot be trusted. They’re going to do a year or two of embrace and extend, pretending to be good citizens. Then they will invent some crisis that causes them to want to de-federate, likely that content on other servers is not moderated to their standards or that convoluted features of their extended protocol are not being met. This take seems pretty spot on to me.
Then they will invent some crisis that causes them to want to de-federate
Easy to predict.
Zucc-bot saw titties on Lemmy, something something think about the children outrage. “Better follow our advertisers happy friendship rules or we defederate and all your users will miss there normie friends. Not our rules, bro.”
Wouldn’t that just isolate their instance much like heaxbear? Or are you saying that the threads instance will be larger than Lemmy.world, or kbin?
Meta out scales the entire project. Google says 141 million users. Its the scale of pissing into the ocean.
Not too familiar with the back end stuff, but would federation data from Meta just DDOS a server not worth millions?
I mean, that would be the initial fear, but I’m not sure how that would matter. Threads can defederate from Lemmy.nsfw but lemmy.world can still federate both.
Maybe I dont understand something
I don’t see this as a genuine, good faith move from Meta. We’re potential future competition to them. They can’t buy us so I think there going to try to shit up the pace over years and hope we come groveling back. It’s a make or break moment for the protocol against a titan.
Software Engineers just reinvent the wheel again and again as everyone loves a green field.
While somewhat true, this is also a dumb take. Not everyone working at Slack/Discord/etc can work on IRC. They’re making competing businesses, not just wanting to re-solve the same problem but wanting to do it with a new code base.
I suppose that applies more to XMPP, but not everything has to be a business, and you don’t have to be an ass about it.
You’re the one being an ass about it, saying developers always want a greenfield project. Tons of people contribute where they can, but we still need a job. So if somebody wants to make a business making a new chat client so they can make enough money to feed their family, well, that’s the capitalistic hellhole we’ve found ourselves in.
No.
- I want to send messages to people who are not currently online (having a server stay online for you is a desparate hack and not a solution)
- I want to send media other than text
- I want my messages to be e2ee
- I want presence - e.g. know if someone is available, busy, away
- I want voice/video calls
and many more…
None of these were solved by IRC but by the others you mentioned.
Sure, but all of those things could have been done by extending the existing protocol.
Also, fwiw, it has had media sends, presence and support for encryption for a very long time. The rest could be added. All of those things could have very well been an IRC client with a couple of extra features and a server upgrade to queue messages.
Nothing good will come of federating with meta, the fediverse should simply stay out of their reach and realize whatever potential it may have.
I think there might be another way to hurt it though that this article doesn’t seem to mention. Funnily enough, it’s also a theme of an asterix and obelix comic book, which the introduction referenced. This way would be monetization. Threads might try to “help” the fediverse by feeding the bigger instances money, therefore the hosts of the instances would be more open to negotiations with meta and accepting of their policies.
I will compare this to YouTube which started paying all it’s big creators until they became dependent on the platform for a living and then started slowly implementing more and more rules that limit their freedom of expression. Remember how much PewDiePie used to swear in his getting over it videos? In another “pew news” or whatever it was called video I happened to watch he directly mentioned that he censors himself because he isn’t going to put his job on the line just to say “fuck”. Profit invites creators to comply with YouTube’s regulations even if they aren’t enforced violently always.
The same pattern was used in the asterix comic I mention above. Ceasar decides to open a building complex almost next to the problematic for him village and so the residents flood the markets and are shocked at the low prices compared to Rome. As a result, the villagers start increasing prices and advertising their goods and services, neglecting their previous morals and ethos. In the end, however, the Romans lose again after (panoramix, I think?) makes them realize how much separation this has caused them, living only for their business. As a result they kick the Romans out of their village, once again united, and Caesar’s plans fail.
I think both these stories could serve as a potential warning to anyone who might consider selling themselves out if meta adopts such a policy.
The year is 2023. The whole Internet is under the control of the GAFAM empire. All of it? Well, not entirely. Because a few small villages are resisting the oppression.
European detected.
So Google used Microsoft’s “Embrace, Extend, Extinguish” strategy and looks like Facebook is aiming to use ut as well
These days, we just call it “the stages of enshitification”. And basically every large tech company is doing something like that
