I bike whenever possible so I drive too, so I’ve seen both sides of this coin.
- Too many rubbish motorists get impatient while driving. Apparently waiting ten seconds is too big an ask for them. I’ve stopped at intersections waiting to turn right and idiots behind me honk because they didn’t see the “NO TURN ON RED” sign.
- There is an intersection where there are two roads crossing at right angles—an ordinary intersection, but one of the roads leading into it has a steep slope, so when I go down that slope on a bike to catch a green light, I end up going pretty fast. The problem is that motor traffic turning right often fails to give way to me (or others) in the bike lane going straight forward. This leads to an unusually high number of collisions and near-collisions, luckily none leading to serious injury—yet. This is in a college campus so motor traffic is slow.
In my city there is a new light rail/tram line that, unlike all the previous lines, doesn’t have arms at any of the level crossings. So right turns on red have been disallowed along the line so drivers don’t unwittingly turn in front of a train.
Turns out drivers tend to have poor situational awareness and will ignore rules that seem mildly inconvenient. The number of cars that have turned directly into the side of a train is both hysterical and alarming.
So yeah, it would be much safer if we disallowed rights on red as a general rule, and had specific exceptions in places where an unaware or impatient driver won’t be putting anyone’s life at risk.
yeah, i don’t understand why people just want to make driving more annoying. implement better public transportation options, don’t destroy something most people feel some sort of enjoyment of / nostalgia for / etc. just like the piracy argument about how you need to make legitimate services better than the bad option
That enjoyment/nostalgia comes at the expense of others safety, drains our economy and helps cause the ecological collapse of our planet
Thos article literally points out how drivers are not aware of the pedestrians routinely put at risk by this insane rule and links to studies supporting their point.
It’s a shame you find it so torturous to wait a few seconds at a red light but that is absolutely not worth risking other people’s lives.
Its not an insane rule, but an established norm in most areas. What has been for 50 years hasn’t suddenly become dangerous.
What has changed in my county is relaxed situational awareness, false security, and avoidance in basic nonverbal communication such as simple eye contact.
People complain my city isn’t walkable friendly, but I have a 3 mile exercise loop I do weekly for 4 years and never, never had a problem. Just be alert and smart. Eye contact, visibility, follow rules… that’s middle school stuff.
Also, the “few seconds” argument is long in the tooth as a recent “calming” measure removed a right lane and traffic now backs up 3 blocks. I waited 3 light cycles to get through an intersection. I don’t buy that “few seconds” fluff after that nonsence.
Who knew letting cars OUT of traffic efficiently REDUCES congestion?!
Crowd gasps
“That’s how we’ve always done it” is always about the worst argument you could ever make. It’s a well-established rule in the US and pretty much exclusively the US because the rest of us aren’t insane enough to implement a rule like that.
What has been for 50 years hasn’t suddenly become dangerous
True, it’s been pretty constant in its high level of danger for at least 50 years. Only now are we starting to think it might be unacceptable.
Everyone should be alert and smart, but mistakes are ultimately unavoidable. We should design the system to reduce the chances of a mistake having fatal consequences.
Nah, it’s rare. https://one.nhtsa.gov/people/outreach/traftech/1995/tt086.htm
Man, this one is tough. I enjoy not having to wait, but I’ve experienced this cognitive overload both as a driver getting surprised then aborting my turn abruptly and as a pedestrian when the driver is too busy watching traffic to look at me, making me nervous about stepping into the crosswalk.
I’m not surprised to read this rule causes accidents.
I’m from Italy and the first time we had a family vacation in the US we were honked a lot because we would stop at red lights. Only after 3 days we discovered that there’s the “turn-on-red” rule and we were confused: if it’s red, why can you turn?
In Italy (but I guess in all Europe works like this) we have a different approach on these situations: if the driver is at a traffic light and can make a turn, but it could be unsafe, the light turns into a blinking yellow light, so that the driver know that it must check well before going on.
Does the blinking yellow light allow drivers to turn onto pedestrians crossing with a green pedestrian light? Cause here that’s the only way you can turn in many intersections and that’s not exactly safer. You shouldn’t put this responsibility on the drivers at all.
In Australia, “blinking yelloe” means “drive with caution” - roadway may be used bey pedestrians, slower traffic may have merged to faster, the traffic lights normal function might be impeded. Just basically a catch all for “be careful”.
Having acid that it’s very rare that you’d find a blinking yellow on a turn across pedestrians - you’d get green arrow or light, pedestrians get green walk, and driver waits for pedestrians. It’s not rocket science. You don’t turn on red though.
Then again we still have thrse fellas so maybe dont listen to us : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_turn
In the UK a blinking yellow means you can go if there’s no pedestrians but you’ll only ever get that at a pedestrian crossing on a straight road. Never an intersection. As in, a place where the only reason the light would ever change is a pedestrian pressed the button to request it. Usually then they’ll go red for a few seconds, then blinking yellow to allow extra time for slower people to cross.
At intersections you might get green arrows to indicate you can go only in that direction. For example it might allow going straight but not turning because pedestrians are crossing the side road.
There’s never a case where red means anything other than you must stop and I’ve never seen a case where both vehicles and pedestrians would get a green light for the same piece of road at the same time.
Interesting, so blinking yellow obviously means the same everywhere but where these are placed varies a lot. In Greece I’ve never seen green for both cars and pedestrians either, but there are many cases where pedestrians get green and cars yellow for the same part of road (usually when cars turn right at intersections). From the answers I take it the original comment probably meant cars turning into the path of other cars, not people, which sounds a bit better.
US has the blinking yellow as well, but usually only in the left turn lane. Which just means yield to oncoming, go if it’s safe.
Personally I do think that’s the real reason behind right on red: saving money for towns who don’t want to invest in more complicated traffic lights. Trading increased injuries for saving a little money
That’s a different situation though. A green arrow means you have full right of way to make the turn. Right-on-red is more like a stop sign.
Insanely frustrating how 50+% of this thread is people flatly arguing against a situation they just dont understand.
Not even a disagreement of opinion, just flatly arguing about a topic that has nothing to do with turning right on a red light intersection.
Except, as I understand it, that arrow should be yellow and flashing, to indicate that pedestrians might also be crossing.
Or, you know, the intersection could be sensibly designed so that pedestrians weren’t at risk of being run over by cars, but that’s not the American way.
If you turn left you’re crossing the path of everyone with a green light. But if you turn right it’s like merging.
I don’t see it that way: when you’re merging you’re going in the same direction of the traffic you’re trying to merge into. At a traffic -light-controlled intersection most of the time you’re perpendicular or at an uncomfortable angle.
Then instead think about it like a stop sign at a T intersection. If you’re turning left, you have to yield for both lanes. But if you’re turning right, you only yield for one.
I remember when right on red was first implemented. The purpose was to save on fuel during the energy crisis back in the 70s/80s. It’s saves some huge amount of green house gasses. A lot of localities spent a fortune on “no right on red” signs.
Theoretically, right on red is a good thing, but theoretically, everybody follows the rules and nobody makes mistakes.
Mexico, USA and Canada all have right on red. Exceptions are New York and Montreal, from what I know.there was a study that convinced Quebec to allow right turn on red everywhere except Montreal.
I can’t find the details on this study. Been looking for about an hour, but I’m not willing to pay 12 paywalls to potentially find more about it.
Meh, shits actually quite rare. https://one.nhtsa.gov/people/outreach/traftech/1995/tt086.htm
When folks are talking to you in percentages and avoid absolutes you can assume they are massaging the message to be more palatable to the intended audience.
Hate to break it to you but that link is talking in percentages. The only absolute number the give is number of fatalities, everything else is a percentage. Specifically, it claims that because turning right on red represents a small % of overall injuries from all traffic it’s not unsafe. That’s not an exaggeration, it’s literally the conclusion they give.
In conclusion, there are a relatively small number of deaths and injuries each year caused by right-turn-on-red crashes. These represent a very small percentage of all crashes, deaths, and injuries. Because the number of crashes due to right-turn-on-red is small, the impact on traffic safety, therefore, has also been small. Insufficient data exist to analyze left turn on red.
A bullet to the arm is safer than a bullet to the head but that doesn’t make it safe.
You people won’t stop until folks are living in a bubble under gun point. There is always another low value crusade that most people don’t want to hear about just shoved in their faces.
Compelling argument. Counter-point: what the fuck are you talking about and how does it relate to people’s right not to be run over in the street?
Approximately 84 fatal crashes occurred per year during the 1982-1992 time period involving a right-turning vehicle at an intersection where RTOR is permitted. During this same time period there were 485,104 fatalities.
Thus, less than 0.2 percent of all fatalities involved a right-turning vehicle maneuver at an intersection where RTOR is permitted. FARS, however, does not discern whether the traffic signal was red. Therefore, the actual number of fatal RTOR crashes is somewhere between zero and 84 and may be closer to zero than 84.
They literally use numbers in their report.
Accidents are rare, sure, and fatalities are rare because the relatively low speed impact. We can nevertheless aspire to create more inclusive infrastructure where pedestrians and cyclists can feel a sense of belonging. The car-centric roads we have in the US today could be better for everyone.
And banning right in red ain’t it. It’ll be ineffective, piss off drivers, and have little to no meaningful effect. If you want to blow political capital in this worthless shit more power to us but I’ll prefer a pragmatic approach that has a chance of being effective.
piss off drivers,
oh no their precious feelings, once again taking precedence over human life
piss off drivers
you need to have your licence taken and put into anger management. That is not how you formulate laws and it should never be the motivation. Own your own fee-fees.
If making people feel safer walking and biking in cities = “worthless shit” to you then why are you even here? I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been honked at or yelled at or nearly run over while walking or on my bike by drivers who refuse to stop at red lights at all because of the right on red rule.
Cars don’t belong in cities at all, with the possible exception of delivery/commercial vehicles and vehicles for disabled people. Banning right on red is just one part of a multi-pronged approach to get us there, together with better bicycle infrastructure and public transit, etc.
I think the general point people are making to you is that, in many municipalities where right on red would be bad, there are enough voters in the pedestrian base alone that nobody has to “appeal to drivers” in order to win a majority. The issue itself has validity on the basis that the health of the pedestrians should be a higher priority than the feeling that drivers are being impacted negatively by not being able to perform this maneuver. You could maybe make a counterargument comprised of economic impacts, as a couple people have tried to do, or a counterargument about how it saves emissions, but I’m sort of inclined to think that caving and giving it over to cars is sort of an approach that has diminishing returns in both of those directions, compared to the alternative.
Fatalities are one thing to consider. Another is injuries that can range from minor to life changing.
I don’t know the stats on this but pedestrian injuries would be something for policy makers to consider as well.
And in general:
- If deaths are up it’s safe to assume injuries are up as well
- Good policy making also involves preventing problems, and educating people on the issue. If 0.2% of deaths is acceptable and trending up at what point do we take action? 0.5%? 1%? 5%?
I don’t think that the US even tracks injuries at least I can’t find anything from a cursory search. But according to Vancouver RTOR is 13% of all deaths and serious injuries. https://viewpointvancouver.ca/2022/08/23/rethinking-the-right-turn-on-red/
Ninety-three percent of RTOR pedestrian or bicyclist crashes resulted in injury.
So, one of the data sources they use is for fatal injuries only and it appears that right turn on red accidents are not usually fatal. Ok, but look at that injury rate; injuries that are not fatal but could still be life-changing.
That article also talks about the limitations of the second data source they use
My overall reaction to that article is not “meh, no big deal”, but “crap, we should have better data on this”. Anecdotally, I’ve seen much worse driving behavior since COViD, where it’s becoming all too common for cars to not even slow down for right on red, and people here online are trying to defend that you don’t even need to stop despite that being clearly stated in the law. I do have a nice walkable downtown, but walking it has been getting more dangerous in recent years: if you hit my kid because you didn’t feel like stopping, it won’t be at all comforting for you to say “meh, it’s not a fatality”
