Hello fellow c/privacy members.
I’m not new to privacy related things but I had a hard time persuading my family members and friends to switch to Matrix/Element. It is a reponse to UK’s Online Security Bill and Investigative Powers Act that may soon in effect.
While it is just a preperation and planning in case those actually became law, I already face resistance from them. When I ask them would they switch, their first reaction is “Why one more app?” then follows with “That’s cumbersome.” or “I don’t want to learn a new app.” and suggest something more popular like Line, Telegram or Discord. Sometimes they would “Install WhatsApp because X is on there and he/she won’t install one more app just for you.”
What can I do to persuade them to use a new platform? Thanks in advance.
EDIT: I think I should elebroate more of what Online Security Bill and Investigative Powers Act does[1]. As far as I understand, OSB will break E2EE by require scanning data on client device, like CSAM but much more generic. IPA requires companies to submit security funcition to the government for approval before releasing, and disable such feature upon request. Apple[2], Single[3] and WhatsApp made the announancment of exiting the UK market totally or partically if two were signed into law.
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/thenextweb.com/news/uk-investigatory-powers-act-default-surveillance-devices-privacy
[2] https://web.archive.org/web/www.forbes.com/sites/emmawoollacott/2023/07/21/apple-threatens-to-pull-facetime-and-imessage-from-the-uk
[3] https://web.archive.org/web/20230809125823/https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-65301510#2023-08-09T12:57:48+00:00
I’m in the process of trying to convince my company to switch to Matrix. I’ve setup a test server and the execs are tepidly giving it a whirl.
The problem is, we use Teams, Microsoft has its proverbial foot in our door, people are used to Teams and don’t really want to switch, and the company doesn’t care enough about privacy and data sovereignty to overcome the inertia and the learning curve.
They listen politely to my arguments and they agree that it would be better if Microsoft didn’t get all our data, but ultimately they really don’t care at all.
Not a lot really. Also, until element gets easier key management for encryption i wouldnt suggest it. I understand public/private keys and session verification and still can never restore matrix from backups without it saying “waiting for message” and it never decrypting even though all the keys imported fine. Its a PITA
Yeah, what’s with that?
It is always a pain in the ass trying to explain that, but it never seems to get fixed
The biggest issue with matrix is that while the protocol is open and servers and clients can be built around it, the element client and synapse server are developed so quickly that nobody else can dream of keeping up. That is its own kind of vendor lock-in.
Yes, but think about how slow development would be if they weren’t so fast. And even this way they are still very slow.
Even if less and less, there are still dealbreaker years-old encryption issues, like that if someone joins an encrypted room, they won’t get the keys for the old messages even if history visibility is on the most permissive setting.
Actually this is for security reasons, and as I understand encryption would be worthless the other way, as a server admin could add an account to the room which would get all the keys otherwise. A workaround to this (it was standardised recently) is that if you invite them from an element client (their client also needs support for this I think, as they have to use it at least for the initial join), your client will send them all the keys it knows, but I’m not sure if it will make only your past messages visible or all of those that you can see (at the point of invitation, so maybe it’s best to scroll back to the beginning of what you see for it to work best). They are also working on a real solution (they refer to it as the end of the linked proposal), I have seen work on that even this year, but they are working on so much things at the same time that it feels to me they’re getting nowhere.
I often feel that even though alt impls can’t keep up, the organization is still starved for human resources. They need to do a whole lot of things at the same time, and of course that’s not possible, because everyone can work on only so few things at a time.
They were often even bashed for serious mistakes and overlookings resulting from this (like the hackea writup), but it seems entirely plausible to me that in the past because of this lack of resources they just weren’t able to do things properly, and they have problems with admitting that with words even to themselves.
I wish I can be this definitive but I couldn’t. Those connections are still needed, and most of the time is I need to talk to someone rather than the opposite.
Which is why I don’t like that advice. These connections are valuable, and people might want to talk to you but have other reasons why they won’t end up using the privacy focussed option only. It’s very hard to switch fully to something like Signal or Matrix, and this isn’t unique to privacy focussed chat apps either.
For me I talk to close friends and family on Signal, and that works because those are the people I have personal discussions with. For other friends that don’t really use Signal consistently, I’ve found that they still use Signal when they want to talk about something private. It’s a process, and I’m happy to put in a little bit of work while people I care about switch over.
and all the others say, “if you want to talk to me I’m on Facebook”
for them, problem solved
Bro I can’t even convince them to join me on Signal… It even syncs contacts w/ mobile number so it’s just a matter of downloading a stupid app and you’re set… I think one day I’ll be brave enough and just disappear from whatsapp.
Look, I once got everyone I know to switch to matrix (Riot, before element) and they depracated the client, made everyone redo their encryption keys, it was a huge mess. Nobody will ever listen to me ever again about a messaging app because of what new vector did with riot.
Matrix is too janky for people. Use something else. Simplex, signal, whatever.
Beyond that, the key is breaking this “one more app” mentality. Why is it so hard to have an app on your phone? These people would install the Starbucks app for a single free milkshake in a heartbeat. This expectation that everyone and everything can be done in one app is absurd, and it’s marketing by the big companies to lock people in when there’s no reason for it. your phone runs apps. What’s the big deal?
And that starts with you. make yourself available on multiple different messengers as possible. Don’t say “I use matrix”, youre being inflexible. Use everything that doesn’t collect your contacts and spy on you. Use telegram, but tell people telegram isn’t encrypted. I personally have matrix, XMPP, session, signal, simplex, telegram, and I even have a discord but I never use it. I fall back to email if I have to. Be flexible if you expect others to be, be available to communicate with in as many ways as you can privately to incentivize people to switch, give them options and let them pick.
I personally have matrix, XMPP, session, signal, simplex, telegram, and I even have a discord but I never use it.
I have Matrix, Session, Singal, Telegram, and Discord. Telegram is saldomly used and Discord is just subscribed to a bunch of game communities. Signal is threatened by OSB and IPA, which announced by them that they will get out of the UK market if those are in effect. Then left Matrix and Session, both not used by anyone.
I would like to be flexible but the reality is there are not much choices. Only XMPP which I don’t have, nor natively supports E2EE which varied by clients.
Look into JMP.CHAT. it’s XMPP, with a phone number that is gatewayed to PBX for voice, and can send/receive SMS.
Matrix is too janky for people. Use something else. Simplex, signal, whatever
This is the gist of it, yes. Setting up a Matrix account has several steps (e.g. backups, identity server, discovery) that are each complicated enough on their own to be deal-breakers for the vast majority of users. It’s just a non-starter for anyone who’s not a techie. It’s been around for many years but still has an absolutely terrible UX.
I wouldn’t dare to recommend it to anyone I know because I do not have the patience to walk them through it and explain it. It would cost me time, energy, and most importantly it would cost me social trust. Nobody would take me seriously anymore if I recommended something that is so user-unfriendly.
Signal is a pretty easy sell, on the other hand. It’s simple, it’s secure, and it works like any other messaging client. It’s not 800 steps to set up backups and discovery. I would prefer to use a decentralized platform, but I’m not investing into Matrix because IMHO, it has no future in the mainstream. I have a Matrix account but I don’t use it talk to anyone I know IRL, and I doubt I ever will.
Signal is only easier because it entirely ignores logging in on multiple devices. Maybe for some it is ok, but for me this is a huge dealbreaker, not an advantage.
If you dont set up key backups (an optional feature), its the same thing: with Signal, if you delete the app or lose your phone, all your messages are gone, along with your contacts that werent saved in your phone contacts and uploaded to a cloud service. If you use Matrix as you do with Signal, it works the same: you delete it, messages are gone. This is the default. But, you have the option to keep your messages.
Identity server? You dont have to use that, and I don’t either. You are not obliged to set up being discovered by outside identifiers. Like I don’t want people to find me by my phone number, as I don’t want to use my phone number, for anything, at all, and so I didn’t do that.
I see that on Signal, you always find people by their phone number, which you are required to hand in. On Matrix, you find people either by their handles (~username), or their phone number or email address if they have handed those in, voluntarily.
So with an indentity server you can make yourself discoverable by your phone number, and you must use one if you want that.
But I think there is a better solution (on the long term, at least): to forget about phone numbers altogether, when possible. Why would this be feasible? It is possible to store the handle in your phones contacts, with the standard “instant messenger” field. Contacts then are usually sharable in messaging apps, or with a QR code, and a lot of software generally understands this format, so you could use this to make your handle known.
By the way, identity servers and discovery is the same step, not 2 different one.
Perhaps this varies by server, or perhaps it’s changed since I signed up. When I signed up, I connected an identity server and then needed to go through a few extra steps to enable discovery by email address and phone number. IIRC my identity server did not support phone numbers at the time.
I greatly prefer service-specific usernames over phone numbers, and that’s a huge point in favor of Matrix. And I agree, Signal is ass-backwards when it comes to multiple devices.
