125 points

The reason the bus driver has a seat belt and the kids don’t is because the kids have a padded seat back in front of them to stop them from launching forward in a crash. The bus driver has nothing but glass and the open road in front of them to stop them from launching forward in a crash. And seat belts help protect the bus driver from the airbags as they deploy from the steering wheel which have been known to deploy so forcefully that if you’re not wearing a seat belt they can kill you, and even in some extreme circumstances completely decapitate you.

Also as someone else pointed out the kids could get trapped in their seats in the event of a fire. The bus driver has a little seat belt cutting tool available to them, but in a fire they might not have time to cut 72 seat belts to free all of the kids on a big bus.

You might ask, well what if the bus rolls? It’s pretty unlikely that the bus would roll because bus drivers are trained pretty extensively and have to go through periodic medical exams and driving exams to make sure they’re capable of doing the job safely. Even if the bus were in a situation where it might roll, it’s very bottom heavy so it would take quite a lot to get it to tip over.

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55 points

Other countries have seatbelts on school buses, so it’s not exactly some cut and dry question.
It’s not even the case in all US states.

The NTSB recommends that we start enforcing seat belts on school buses.
https://www.ntsb.gov/Advocacy/safety-topics/Pages/schoolbuses.aspx

They agree with what you said, but disagree that the risk of being trapped outweighs the risk of being fired face first into a seat back.

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10 points

As a school bus driver, I can say there is ZERO chance of being able to make the kids actually wear the seat belts.

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2 points
*

That’s what I always assumed was the reason for designing them to be safe without belts.

There were belts on couple of the front seats when I was a kid (mid 80s).

Ironically that state had only just started making seatbelts mandatory for minors (I think under 16 or maybe just under 12). There were kids riding around in the back of pickup trucks on main roads when we first moved there.

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4 points

Interesting. I live in southern Ontario and we definitely don’t have seat belts on buses here.

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4 points

We mostly don’t here in the US, either. It’s not federally required for them to have seat belts, but that may change in the future based off things like the NTSB’s recommendation.

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33 points

An interesting stat about school buses is that over the last 20 years or so, there has been a roughly equal number of bus driver deaths and passenger deaths. Since a school bus typically carries a much larger number of passengers (as many as 70 or more) than drivers (1), this means that the risk of death for the driver is far higher than that for the passengers (although exactly how much riskier it is is difficult to determine from the published data).

Another interesting safety feature of school buses is that the bus bodies are clipped to the chassis rails rather than being bolted or welded to them and thus are held in place solely by friction. This is so that the bus body can slide forward a couple of feet along the rails in the event of a head-on collision, which greatly reduces the deceleration forces experienced by the passengers (this crash test video shows the phenomenon clearly). This does not help the driver much either as they’re sliding forward into the engine compartment or into the oncoming vehicle in the case of flat-front buses.

It’s pretty unlikely that the bus would roll

Yeah, buses really aren’t going to roll unless they get hit hard on the side by an equally-large vehicle traveling at a high speed - or unless they run afoul of some mythbusters.

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5 points

The mythbusters clip about the bus is one of my favorites, because it showed just how hard it is to tip over a bus.

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3 points

Wow I didn’t know about the sliding rails thing. Interesting hidden design.

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29 points
*

The fire stuff makes some degree of sense but the “padded seat” thing doesn’t. 1) they aren’t very padded in the back, and 2) by that logic people wouldn’t need to wear seatbelts if they sat in a back seat in any car.

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33 points

The other advantage of buses is that they have a lot of inertia due to their mass. The most likely thing for them to hit is a car and most likely because that car made a mistake. The bus can easily push a car out of the way without losing too much velocity. The same is not true of your average civilian vehicle.

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7 points
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  1. by that logic people wouldn’t need to wear seatbelts if they sat in a back seat in any car.

That logic is the exact reason in some places it is(was? My info is a few years old.) legal for adults in the back seat to not wear a seat belt. Not saying I agree with the logic, but that actually is the case in some places.

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3 points

they aren’t very padded in the back

They’re not exactly well-padded, but other than the outer frame of the backs (which is 1" square steel tubing), the backs are made from stamped 30-gauge sheet steel which deforms quite readily on impact. Kids can get bruised in collisions by impacting the seat backs but they’re usually not badly hurt.

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-4 points
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F = ma

A car crash will affect an obsese 250lb bus driver much more than some 40lb little twerp.

Let’s say the bus was traveling at a rate of 60mph🇺🇸 and hit a brick wall, and all passengers uniformly come to a complete stop at precisely 1 second. The 5 year old weighing 40lbs🇺🇸 would experience an impact of around 109 pounds of force (109.40 lbf🇺🇸) whereas the bus driver weighing 250lbs🇺🇸 would experience 683.67 lbf🇺🇸.

I absolutely did NOT run the calculations in 🤮 🇪🇺 🤮 before converting to 😎🇺🇸😎.

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3 points

High schoolers ride busses too. They’re a little bigger than 40lb twerps at that point.

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1 point
*

In fact, I think newborns shouldn’t need any restraints at all.

Toss em in the back of the truck on the drive back home from the hospital. They’ll be fine!

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0 points

I mean, on the other hand, a 5 year old is generally more fragile than an adult man.

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17 points

“padded seat back in front”

I haven’t had to take a school bus in 20 years but from what I remember there isn’t much padding over the frame that goes around the back so I wouldn’t want to get that in my face in a crash!

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11 points

I was a chaperone on a school trip last year, and the bus had about 3" of foam padding over the frame and just vinyl on the seat back. Plus the sides of the bus were just bare aluminum with screws and sharp corners.

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14 points

I just want to point out that decapitation, in a medical sense, doesn’t necessarily mean the head is removed from the body. You can be internally decapitated.

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7 points

Huh, TIL

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5 points

Like…brain stem shearing? Yuck.

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5 points

Not necessarily. There are stories of horsemen getting bucked while staying in the saddle and having to hold their head up by the hair while riding to medical attention. They didn’t become quadriplegic but the internal decapitation lost them control of their neck.

Not too sure why it isn’t considered a broken neck though

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12 points

School bus drivers have more oversight than police huh?

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19 points

Hair stylists have more oversight than police.

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10 points

School bus drivers are going under significantly less training and requirements in my affluent DC suburb, since Covid at least.

They don’t get paid shit and they’re privatizing the school busses :(

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5 points

The privatizing shit is ludicrous. A lot of districts in my area have gone that route, and they always end up paying more per student-mile while getting the kids transported in older buses by shittier drivers who get DUIs and failed drug tests far more often. They always sell it as allowing private enterprise to “innovate”, but there’s no innovation to be had in the world of school buses. No matter who does it, you have to buy or lease buses, maintain them (or not, as the case may be), and hire drivers and a couple people to handle the logistics.

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4 points

100%

Privatization isn’t inherently better and of late RARELY is

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8 points

Iirc, Mythbuster tried to roll a bus and couldn’t.

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4 points

What do you mean it’s not capitalism being evil again?

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20 points

Nah it’s so kids don’t get trapped in a fire

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40 points
*

Nope, it’s literally a cost benefit analysis.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/document/seat-belts-large-school-buses

NTSB recommends seatbelts, NHTSA says they would save lives, but the cost or complexity might reduce usage, and school buses are safer than being dropped off at school, so the cost isn’t justified.

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40 points

I mean, this is showing the school bus fatalities are insanely low (just 5 total in 37 years in AL) and we should instead use funding to make the more dangerous parts of student transportation safer. This seems like using data to make sure we are making informed choices that will actually increase safety for a larger number of kids instead of wasting resources.

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21 points

That is precisely what it is.
It’s literally a cost benefit analysis showing that while seatbelts make riders safer, they aren’t thought to be the best way to make things as safe as possible.

It’s not about fire safety.

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3 points

In other words, divert funding from school bus seatbelts to Safe Routes to Schools.

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7 points

The “better spend resources elsewhere” part makes sense. The cost side feels a little dishonest, beacuse when large enough government bodies mandate safety rules, suppliers pick up a lot of the cost, under “the cost of doing business”.

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4 points

Usually seat belts are made to be ejected by a simple button and spring mechanism. We perfected the technology decades ago.

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5 points

Cool. Now try to get a 1rst grader to use one when it’s panicking

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-1 points
*

What would they do in a real car owned by mom and dad? Presumably in a child booster seat? Do children usually have issues with seatbelts? Also, in a head on collision, that 1st grader is going to be travelling at 40-60mph head first into seat in front of them.

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1 point
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7 points

It’s not actually fire concern.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/document/seat-belts-large-school-buses

That’s a summary of the NHTSA stance pre 2015.

Tldr: busses are super safe, and much safer than other ways if getting to school. Eliminating the problem that seat belts solved would not be reducing fatalities or injuries by much.
Mandating seatbelts would also likely reduce ridership due to costs or difficulty managing seatbelts in kids, and since buses are safer, reducing ridership does more harm than seatbelts prevent.
More kids get hurt by people driving recklessly around dropoff and pickup sites than in bus accidents, so focusing on that issue does more good.

Also, in 2015 the NHTSA reversed their position. They didn’t mandate it though, so it’s taking a while for states to retrofit busses.
Changing data, changing policy.

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19 points
Deleted by creator
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35 points

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7 points
Deleted by creator
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7 points

Train has entered the chat

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19 points

Which is why protocol is to stop before the tracks and open the door to listen

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1 point
Deleted by creator
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11 points

The CBC’s “The Fifth Estate” did a whole show about this.

https://youtu.be/bcnSpQdeG3M?si=kEaXz_CfU8nqXfJq

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9 points

People are doing all kinds of justifications to why school buses don’t have seatbelts, but why don’t regular public transportation buses have seatbelts?

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1 point

Because they are friggin tanks. 63000 pounds of you can’t hurt shit unless you are bigger. Which in a fixed route system is rare. Because bigger things are on the freeway and busses are on surface streets.

I was a bus driver. I have been in two accidents. One a car was upset and rammed my rear left panel. Took off his bumper. It didn’t even chip my paint and no one was harmed in the coach.

It’s up to the operator almost always if their passengers are harmed. There are exceptions. But if you are operating at the speed limit and just on the designed route there are few times where people will be in harms way inside the bus. In fact to make good time for the route and the passengers it’s usually safe to go 5 mph under the posted speed limit.

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