Even if ai took over 90% of all coding work, that still wouldn’t affect more than maybe two hours a day.
This is basically a thing now with how good transcription become, it’s wonderful
Yes, but your bosses don’t know/understand that, why pay you when they can have 3 interns & AI for freeeeeeeeeeee???
Our team lead recently sent out two fresh juniors to tackle a task, with no senior informed. And of course, they were supposed to build it in Python, even though they had no experience with it, because Python is just so easy. Apparently, those juniors had managed to build something that was working …on one machine, at some point.
On the day when our team lead wanted to show it to the customer, the two juniors were out of house (luckily for them) and no one knew where a distribution of that working state was. The code in the repo wouldn’t compile and seemed to be missing some commits.
So, a senior got pulled in to try to salvage it, but the juniors hadn’t set up proper dependency management, unit tests, logging, distribution bundling, nor documentation. And the code was spaghetti, too. Honestly, could have just started over fresh.
Our team lead was fuming, but they’ve been made to understand that this was not the fault of the juniors. So, yeah, I do think on that day, they found some new appreciation for seniors.
Heck, even I found new appreciation for what we do. All of that stuff is just the baseline from where we start a project and you easily forget that it’s there, until it’s not.
Writing the actual code is the easy part. Thinking about what to write and how to organize it so it doesn’t become spaghetti is the hard part and what being a good developer is all about.
Question is: how many developers are actually good? Or better, how many produce good results? I wouldn’t call myself a great programmer, just okayish, but I certainly pushed code I knew was absolute garbage, simply because of external pressure (deadlines, legacy crap, maybe just a bad day,…).
I’m more of a mechanical engineer than a coder, and for me it’s been super helpful writing the code. The rest of our repo is clear enough that even I can understand what it actually does by just reading it. What I’m unfamiliar with are the syntax, and which nifty things our libraries can do.
So if you kinda understand programs but barely know the language, then it’s awesome. The actual good programmers at my company prefer a minimal working example to fix over a written feature request. Then they replace my crap with something more elegant.
It would probably mean the amount of coding work that companies want done would multiply 10 fold as well. I’m sure the content of the work developers do will change somewhat over time (analogous to what happened during the industrial revolution), but I doubt they’re all out of a job in the near future.
Where I’m really not sure is, what percentage of the software written today actually needs human work?
I mean, think about all the basic form rendering, inputs masks, CRUD apps. There’s definitely a ton of work in them and they’re widely used, but I’m pretty sure that a relatively basic AI-assisted framework could recreate most of these apps with hardly any actual coding. Sure, it won’t be super efficient or elegant, but let’s be honest: nobody cares about that, if they’re good enough.
Just look at Wix, Wordpress, Squarespace etc. Website builders basically imploded the “low effort” web design market. Who would pay hundreds for a website made by a human, if you can just click together something reasonably good looking in 2h?
There’s definitely a ton of work in them and they’re widely used, but I’m pretty sure that a relatively basic AI-assisted framework could recreate most of these apps with hardly any actual coding
Any shop that’s not incompetent switched to using frameworks for that stuff 10-20 years ago, so there’s hopefully very little work left there for the AI.
Even at a company where it’s a massive amount, that company “benefitting” from AI, really just managed to defer their “use a framework” savings 20 years late.
We do this every 15 years. For anyone less than 15 years into their career, welcome to the party.
Let’s see if I can save you some energy:
- Yes, it made my job massively easier.
- No, it didn’t replace me.
- Yes, it allowed a bunch of new people to also do the job I do. Welcome newbies!
- No, my salary didn’t go down, relative to inflation.
It turns out that the last mile to a successful product delivery is still really fucking hard, and this magic bullet tool also didn’t solve that.
Now… Am I talking about…?
- AI?
- Web frameworks?
- English like programming language syntax?
- A compiler with built-in type checking?
- All of the above.
Edit: Formatting for readability.
I mean honestly for things like tech, the jobs are going away due to these innovations, just piecemeal. Each of these innovations have shaved hours off of projects. Now someone’s salary might be the same and they might still have to go into the office 40hrs a week (or be just as productive working from home, go figure) but the actual work they’re doing is that much easier than it used to be, they might only have to work 4 hours a day now to accomplish what might have taken 2 days in the past.
Sure, certain companies put more demand on employees than others, and as you mentioned there are still human components to the system that remain untouched by technology, but if the tech world was honest with itself tech employees do far less work now than they did 10-20 years ago, disregarding the general expansion of the tech industry. I’m just talking about individual jobs.
Of course I don’t think those employees should be making less. I think if we innovate so much that a person’s job disappears we should be able to recognize that that person still deserves to be clothed and fed as if they still had that job.
Yes, except for the fact that the flip side of those is that software, almost by definition, is automating away jobs in other industries.
So when it gets easier / cheaper to write software, other industries will spend an increasing amount on it to replace their workers. That’s one of the reasons the software industry has continued to grow, even though it’s gotten easier to write.
Sure, but also almost by definition, using tech to replace workers in other industries will reduce the total amount of workers needed for that job as you made the tech presumably to make the job easier or faster. My post was talking about the tech industry just because that was the topic, but as you mention, tech definitely replaces jobs in all sectors.
tech employees do far less work now than they did 10-20 years ago
Agreed!
Of course, if we had truly understood the situation 10-20 years ago, we could have admitted that they were primarily being paid to know how to get the thing* to work, and not actually for the hours they spent typing in new code. Hence the rise of “Infrastructure Engineer” and “DevOps Specialist” as titles.
*I omiitted the technical term, for brevity. But to be clear, by ‘thing’, I mean what professionas typically call the “damned fucking piece of shit webserver, and this fucking bullshit framework”.
No, my salary didn’t go down, relative to inflation.
I’m calling bullshit on that one.
Everybody’s salary except executives has gone down relative to inflation going all the way back the the 80s.
Not mine. Every year if I don’t get a “cost of living” increase that meets or exceeds inflation, I go complain about it to my boss who then negotiates with HR on my behalf and I get a bigger raise. I’m not gonna let inflation kill my salary, and my boss is not gonna risk me leaving for another company. I do wish they would just give it to me up front and stop making me ask each year. We all know what the outcome is gonna be.
This got passed around as a common fact in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis. Wages from the early 70s through 2010 or so were flat (not negative, but flat) due to inflation. Things have shifted since then.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q
Note that the graph shows median wage; it isn’t as affected by a few high earners as average wage would be. The 2010s were a period of relatively low inflation and wages had a chance to catch up a bit.
What is true is that productivity has leaped massively since the 70s, but median wages have only crept up somewhat. The argument needs to shift to be around how the working class was screwed out of their share of productivity improvements. That’s not likely to change until we have more unions and overall something closer to Socialism.
Two mitigating factors for me:
- For many years my skillet expanded faster than inflation ate away at my pay. I’ve been in a high demand specialty (Cybersecurity) for awhile.
- I’m now a manager, which does come with extra pay. Perhaps more importantly, it puts me in a position to throw my weight around to get my team and myself better raises.
lol, I’d love to see the fucking ruin of the world we’d live in if current LLMs replaced senior developers. Maybe it’ll happen some day, but in the meantime it’s job security! I get to fix all of the bugfuck crazy issues generated by my juniors using Copilot and ChatGPT.
So much hallucinated crap and shoddy answers. Just because it was AI generated doesn’t mean it was a good solution
One of my uni lecturers does the whole “You are out of a job” thing. He’s a smart guy but he’s barley written a line of code in his life. This comes up frequently and everytime I ask him “Get CHATGPT to write fizz buzz in X86 ASM.” Without fail it will crash when trying to build everytime. This technology is very advanced but I find people get it to the the simplest tasks and then expect it to solve the most complex ones.
I tried using AI tools to do some cleanup and refactoring of some legacy embedded C code and was curious if it could do any optimization or knew any clever algorithms.
It’s pretty good at figuring out the function of the code and adding comments, it did some decent refactoring of some sections to make them more readable.
It has no clue about how to work in a resource constrained environment or about the main concepts that separate embedded from everything else. Namely that it has to be able to run “forever”, operate in realtime on a constant flow of sensor data, and that nobody else is taking care of your memory management.
It even explained to me that we could do input filtering by using big arrays to do simple averaging on a device with only 1kB RAM, or use a long long for a never-reset accumulator without worrying about what will happen because “it will be years before it overflows”.
AI buddy, some of these units have run for decades without a power cycle. If lazy coders start dumping AI output into embedded systems the whole world is going to get a lot more glitchy.
This is how AI is a threat to humanity. Not because it will choose to act against us, but because people will trust what it says without question and base huge decisions on faulty information.
I was helping someone with their programming homework, every time copilot suggested anything he just blindly added it, and every time i had to ask him “and why do you need those lines? What do they do?”, and he could never answer…
Sometimes those lines made sense, other times they were completely irrelevant to the problem, but he just add the suggestions on reflex without even reading them
- People vastly overestimate the abilities of AI.
- Developers vastly overestimate their own abilities.
- There are people on any level of seniority that would be perfectly replaced by a noise generator.
The company had avoided certain destruction, after having fired the previous CEO and putting a new one in it’s place. The new CEO had managed to bring a newfound calm to the company and it’s ranks, and brought an air of meditative discipline to board room meetings.
Some said it was crazy, but making the LectoFan EVO the new CEO was the best decision the company board had ever made.
Overestimate now, but I think that AI is going to be insane within like 5 years, given current investment trends
I find it very hard to believe that AI will ever get to the point of being able to solve novel problems without a fundamental change to the nature of “AI”. LLMs are powerful, but ultimately they (and every other kind of “AI”) are advanced pattern matching systems. Pattern matching is not capable of solving problems that haven’t been solved before.
Being a programmer is a lot like being a tradesperson. A tradesperson has a lot of flexibility in what they can do. They can work for a company, work freelance, or start their own business.
Programming gives you the same flexibility, the most important bit being that you can do it for yourself.
AI is going to struggle with larger complex tasks for a long time coming. While you can go to it and say ‘write me a script to convert a png to a jpg’ you can’t go to it and say ‘Write me a suite of tools to support business X’ or ‘make me a fun and creative game’ A good programmer isn’t going to be out of work for a long time.
Most of the work software developers do is comprehending the problem, formulating a solution that addresses the problem, and doing it in a maintainable, performant, and security conscious manner.
I think AI can write a killer isEven() method, I think it’s shit at everything I listed… it’s extremely shit at being security conscious, any dev can tell you that it’s easier to write code and confirm it’s following best security practices then it is to review someone’s code and confirm it’s following best security practices… I think AI actively makes it harder to have confidence in security.
The first real part of my job I think AI will help with is performance tuning. We’re not there yet but I think we’re not unimaginably far from being able to give an AI a working but slow function and have a computer spin up a million randomized test inputs and outputs… then start scrambling the algorithm in a plethora of ways and testing the performance while confirming that the test cases pass.
Then again, you’ll need to confirm the algorithm is still secure - but I think the realm of performance is the first place we’d see a tool that I’d demand a license for.
All the AI does is match the request to solutions it was trained in.
It just stackoverflow in your ide. It has a little more flexibility in answering and isn’t as corrupted by SEO result when googling the equivalent answer. Its not informed and thinking.
The optimisation problems you are talking about is the process that is used to make AI models in the first place. I think you want an AI to configure optimisation routines for you rather than build the test cases and variables yourself. Or you want some system that implement all the individual components better, but an AI that can optimise the entire thing isn’t coming about soon. It would need to trained on very similar software. In which case you should just use that better software.
Basically any pro-AI argument seems to go “it will achieve AGI”. So funny that lots of people buy that, forgetting how hard a general intelligence is.
I want AGI to be a thing. I see little evidence that OpenAI et al are going that way. Pretty sure it’s mostly hype to distract from wholesale theft of IP for profit.
