this is the kind of black and white thinking lemmy does best.
EDIT: i retract this statement. i was wrong
i was severely misinformed about what antifacism is. i was under the impression that “the antifa” was a group by itself instead of a mindset.
You’re not pro-fascist, you’re just against people trying to stop the fascists. Thank god for nuance.
i hate fascists with a passion, but i might not agree with how antifa acts. i do not have any experience with the group itself, i might even agree with them.
for example, i do not like how the last generation glued themselves to streets. that doesn’t make me a climate denier, does it?
EDIT: it seems i misunderstood what antifa is. i always saw it as “the group of violent extremist protesters that throw rocks and light up cars”
again, i am fully for doing everything i can against fascists. but violent protests don’t contribute, all it does is make your movement the next boogeyman.
Is a burning car really worse than fucking over the next 15 generations and the planet
I’m baffled as to what the point of this comment is, besides waffling about the virtues of not picking sides for not picking sides’ sake.
There is no singular group called “antifa”. It’s a movement of loosely (at best) interconnected but independent, antifascist groups.
Also, we need all these groups. It’s them who usually organize rallies against racism, fascism, antisemitism, inhuman law proposals, et cetera. Also they organize all sorts of other actions against alt right, far right and (neo-)nazis, like disrupting their rallies and standing in the way of goon squads.
Antifa groups are damn important.
There is no organization Antifa. It’s an ideology. So if you are against the ideology of anti fascism, what are you for?
Its not “the group”.If you look in left and right wing violence in most countries you’ll see a huge disparity, even after the right wing police has significantly biased the statistics. Most people in Antifa groups just go to demos, organize workshops and put political stickers up.
Thats alle the stuff Fox wants to villify, because they want people to be fascists.
but violent protests don’t contribute
There is no alternative to fighting fascists with violence. You can’t have a nice talk with someone who is gunning down Jewish persons. You just shoot them in the face.
Someone supports fascists who want to genocide a group of people? Burning down their car is less than they deserve.
I invite you to learn more about the holocaust. The suffering cannot be put into words. There is no means too drastic to prevent something like it to ever happen again.
Anti-antifa does not subscribe to the law of the excluded middle, so double negation elimination does not apply.
EDIT: This was a math joke, but I’m proud that it seems to have gone over so many heads.
It kinda does since, despite GOP talking points to the contrary, Antifa is not a terrorist group or even a group at all. It’s a movement with the sole purpose of opposition to fascism.
At best, being anti-antifa is being pro-fascist and the difference between that and being a fascist is miniscule if existent.
By that logic people who are against Focus on the Family are against families. You don’t get to own a concept just by putting it in your name.
Focus on the family is a hate group that burns down cities.
They don’t care about any families, even if it’s in their title.
Against x vs
Against what x do vs
Against what x targets vs
Against ideology x vs
Against what may happen if x vs
Against organisation x and so on
These are not identical things
Being against fascism is not the same as being against some organisation that does bad things
Antifa is not an organisation. It’s an idea Just neatly contained to being against fascism
Anti-antifa only means you’re against the people claiming to be anti-fascist. It doesn’t mean you like fascism. Nor does being antifa mean everything you’re against is fascism.
I think it should be noted, the difference between antifa the organization and antifa the philosophy.
I am very much ideologically anti-fascist and I believe I would take up arms against a fascist government, however antifa the org has made some questionable calls in the past.
There is no overarching antifa organization though. Try looking for a website/forum/etc of antifa. There are websites for random local activist groups which call themselves antifa, but there is no leader or comittee overseeing these groups. There is no process to join antifa, any activist group or individual can call themselves antifa.
So there are no calls made by antifa, good or bad. There are only calls made by individuals or local groups that call themselves antifa.
Fair. I think you can understand them as a group still, similarly to how you can see anonymous as a group.
I don’t think I’m educated enough to say anything against the group as a whole, as I haven’t sat down to do a lot of research on them (I’m realizing now that my comment was made from a BS bias that I had picked up from when I was a conservative).
however I don’t think the logic of the source meme on it’s own shows someone as fascist just because they oppose the antifa orginization.
I don’t support fascisms, but I also don’t support violence and property damage to get the message across. I will never take a “movement” seriously that uses vandalism to get a message across.
Cooperate wants you to find the difference:
- Storming the capitol
- Violent Antifa protests
One is an attempt to overthrow democracy and install a fascist theocratic dictatorship. The other is protesting directly against that. While you may not agree with their methods, which is frankly childish and placing the responsibility for our social climate in the laps of the oppressed, you cannot in good faith smile smugly and say “same”.
In that case, I suppose you also oppose the Civil Rights Movement, considering it too was often violent and had a significant amount of property damage.
I would oppose their methods, not the movement (ideology, cause call it what you want)
But their methods were a result of their material conditions, and resulted in the liberation of Black Americans from segregation. Do you not equally take fault with the white moderates who opposed ending segregation and used disapproval of their methods as rhetoric?
Unfortunately, when protests get extreme, there is inevitably some level of violence, whether that be to people or property. It is the responsibility of the state to prevent it from getting this bad. People don’t just think “hmm, today I will do some violence,” violence erupts as a consequence.
That was a war, the violent resistance was against a hostile occupation, not a social issue.
We live under a hostile occupation by security forces employed by the wealthy class, there are deaths everyday due to the systems maintained by wealth and greed.
I also don’t support violence and property damage to get the message across
so, you condemn the boston tea party, right?
I will never take a “movement” seriously that uses vandalism to get a message across.
what’s your favorite successful social movement from history that didn’t use any vandalism to get a message across?
I will never take a “movement” seriously that uses vandalism to get a message across.
“I’m all for trying to protect people and save lives, but you used vandalism!” Clutches pearls in a death grip
What about violence? Murder? Mass Murder? Where would you draw the line, which reaction is out of proportion?
That’s quite the slippery slope fallacy. I replied to your comment of:
I don’t support fascisms, but I also don’t support violence and property damage to get the message across. I will never take a “movement” seriously that uses vandalism to get a message across.
Which at no point mentions mass murder. “Oh, you support people protesting? What about BLOWING UP THE PLANET IN PROTEST?! Is THAT okay then?”
The fact that you equate property damage with mass murder really says a lot about you.
Do you think people normally resort to mass murder in protest of, say, slightly decreased toilet paper thickness? If there’s an issue that is so pressing that there’s actually mass murder, then the State is an utter failure for not addressing said issue before it got to that point, and is almost certainly a fascist system.
This is just a strawman.
