UK Labour are too Tory for me.
I’ve threatened that they’ve lost my vote. (edit)
On LGBTQIA, specifically trans rights.
On their plans for the NHS.
On their plans for health and wealth inequalities in the UK.
On their plans for the relationship the UK has with Europe.
They have to be less Tory to get my vote back.
It’s not acceptable that to not vote Tory, we have to settle for what they offer. They assume their position is acceptable.
If they correct their position, I’ll reconsider
@uk_politics
“Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good”
Labour and the Tories are not the same. The purpose of the narrative that they are is to foster and maintain voter apathy.
Labour and the Tories are not the same
No, they’re not. But that doesn’t make them good. Less bad, perhaps, but good is a stretch.
The purpose of the narrative that they are is to foster and maintain voter apathy.
Voters are apathetic because they rarely (if ever) get to vote for something, usually it’s voting to stop something/somebody else.
I agree that voting these days seems to be about “holding one’s nose” and picking the party most likely to stop something.
I blame FPTP.
At the moment, if you’re right-leaning there’s essentially just one party of note but if you’re left-leaning you’ve got some choices.
With PR, I believe more people would be able to just vote for what they want to see.
@C4d Only if people fail to see that there are multiple narratives, which include telling Labour I require they change under threat of no vote. They like others know not of my intention, the cost to them is clear, a lost vote, which is what they require. They earn my vote, they work for it. Hopefully ppl who are dissatisfied will see that another way exists and instead demand better, not to succumb to their own apathetic thought processes.
I think this argument (and your voting “power”, or at least your ability to directly influence the direction of a political party) would work better in a PR rather than FPTP system.
At the moment, losing your vote may or may not cost anyone anything if you’re among a demographic that consistently votes one way or the other.
If you had time on your hands, you could join the local representation of the party of your choice and begin to influence it that way. Unfortunately, not all demographic groups have the luxury of free time.
@C4d Like I’ve said elsewhere, it’s a threat of a lost vote, that doesn’t mean I won’t vote tactically at GE. They can gamble that I and others will hold to our threat in their strategy if they wish. Just as they can if they assume that all polls assume a majority acceptance of policies, which is short-sighted IMO.
They’ve been told they’re not good enough and have a threat of a lost vote because of it.
Agreed, PR is better, Starmer has U-turned on that as well though.
This is a good summary of Labour’s actual policy positions, which are very different from your characterisation of them. You obviously have the right to vote for whoever you want to, for whatever reasons, but it’s better to root your behaviour in reality, not rhetoric.
Thank you! It’s actually worrying how much people seem to be basing their idea of what party policy will be on soundbites they’ve heard.
This country is in dire need of some political literacy. Thinking that the Tories and Lib Dems are somehow better on LGBQT issues than Labour would be hilarious if it wasn’t a damning indictment of the intelligence of British voters.
Search for it on archive.is
If you’re on Firefox you can add a filter for paywalls to uBlock Origin.
@frankPodmore Unfortunately the pay wall prevents others from seeing this. I’ve read the entire article via the link given and it doesn’t address several of my points, so I’m not clear which policy positions you’re referring to.
In fact the opening paragraph agrees with me:
“It has been said that in sidelining the Labour party’s Corbynite left wing and manoeuvring it towards the centre, Sir Keir Starmer has made the UK opposition barely distinguishable in tone from the governing Conservatives.”
Paywalls are easily circumvented. This isn’t a good excuse.
For the uninitiated; Copy the article address and paste it into the search bar on archive.is. There are multiple paywall bypass methods, this is just one.
@noodle As I said I’ve read it, via a different method to you, but thanks for sharing it.
Now other readers will be aware of a strategy. Not all strategies work so people may have to try more than one. In any case it’s an inadequate article.
@frankPodmore My characterisation is broad and lacking detail, mostly for word count. There are other policies I’ve not detailed either.
As I’ve said elsewhere, my voicing my opinion to Labour and other left parties is as important as my vote.
That is definitely less important than your vote. Also, I’m unconvinced you’ve read the article in the time you’ve had since I posted it.
EDIT: Why have you replied in so many different comments? I can’t follow your argument if it’s spread out like this!
@frankPodmore
It is precisely as important because I value my vote and I decide to whom I give it, and because they need to know why they have my vote or not. The article is 632 words long.
@frankPodmore I have rooted my behaviour in reality by telling them what I want. Additionally, I also have the absolute right to change my mind as many times as I wish and to vote tactically, come the GE dependent on the facts available at the time.
We should all be able to make on the spot decisions based on the available data and only rely on heuristics if the data isn’t available.
What I tell them and what I do, are not Labour’s concern.
Your description of what you want is virtually value-free, because it’s framed entirely negatively. It sounds like you want ‘not the Tories’. The article makes the case that Labour are ‘not the Tories’, as does history and, frankly, common sense.
@frankPodmore The article in it’s just over 600 words does barely anything to answer my points.
The value is again, that I choose to tell Labour what it is I want from them. Recall that I’ve not shared the email with you, so you have no way of knowing.
It isn’t a simple dichotomy. I choose to tell Labour what I want from them. There are many varieties of not Tory and labour can choose to be Tory lite, or not. How I vote and what I tell them can align or not as I see fit.
You don’t vote FOR a party in a first past the post system. You tactivally vote against.
@Garfvynneve What I tell them I’m planning to do doesn’t have to match with what I’ll actually do.
We all can do this to demand better.
The famous Labour double bind:
If a left leaning Labour lose the election, it’s because they don’t appeal to voters. If a right leaning Labour lose the election, it’s because the left didn’t vote for them.
@Fedegenerate I didn’t say I won’t vote for them, I just told them they had lost my vote.
Staying silent and voting for a not good enough Labour let’s them think they are. Telling them I won’t even though I might vote for them, and describing why, gives them an opportunity to evaluate.
If they’re not good enough for you and yours what are you doing to change that? My strategy is one way. There are others.
don’t think I’m describing what you think I’m describing.
I’m describing the no win situation right leaning Labour supporters try to force left leaning people into.
I.e. 1 When a Labour leader they don’t like loses an election it’s the left’s fault. 2 When a leader they do like loses an election it’s the left’s fault.
I saw the same double bind being envoked in this thread, so I thought I’d highlight it.
Oh no you must be so persecuted!
Although the last person that Labour put forward, wasn’t right leaning?
How well did he do in the vote against Boris? Or is that all the right wings fault too?
Can you vote tactically for Lib Dem or Greens without risking more votes going to the Tories?
Tactically speaking, you can vote for the party you want to win only if you are absolutely certain that a) the tories have such a strong majority there isn’t a chance of anyone else getting in; b) some other party has such a majority there isn’t a chance of the Tories getting in. Otherwise you vote for the non-Tory party (or party that will not ally with the Tories) that is most likely to make it in your area.
I still vote tactically because there have historically been some close results where I live, but I’m sick of voting for parties I don’t want to win. I decided to become a member of the political party that I felt I was in most in line with, despite the fact I rarely vote for them. Small gesture, I know.
@ThePyroPython My email has struck a chord and I’ve had a response today. My local Labour parliamentary candidate wants to chat with me. I’ll see what they have to say and report back.
@ThePyroPython
Under FPTP, not in my area, however…
https://med-mastodon.com/@XraySonoCol/110876506587951106
Mate, we’re under a first past the post system, tactical voting matters to get the most damaging political force, i.e. the Tories, out of power and by a significant majority.
Anything remotely left of the Tories is better, even if it is Centre Centre Centre calling itself Left Labour.
At this point lib Dems are probably left of labour with their policies, given labours recent downturn
You students tried that in 2015 and got Megagiga Tory and in 2016 we left the EU. In 2017 and 2019 when the Lib Dems campaigned to stop Brexit and rejoin it was “they took rrrrr students loans!”. 🙄
So yes, fuck them. Oh and whilst we’re at it let’s also hand power to two parties that will keep us out of the EU because they are scared of their voter base. Good job 👍.
I’m not a student, but let me ask you this as a supposed predecessor, why didn’t you ensure younger generations didn’t have to worry about politicians lying without consequence?
Oh and don’t forget the Lib Dems are partially responsible for this mess. It may surprise you but I’m old enough to remember that. They’re an untrustworthy party and no one owes them a vote because some person on the Internet wants to whitewash their recent history and guilt trip us into supporting them.
Trust and good will for the Lib Dems was destroyed in 2010, when they jumped into a coalition government with the Tories for the tiniest sniff of power, despite their manifesto being closer to Labour’s on paper, backtracking on many of their policies and outright failing on others.
