Hello everyone,
I’ve been wondering, why has no one built an entirely free (as in freedom) computer yet? For humans to be unable to share each other’s knowledge to build one of the most important technologies ever created for society, how is it that we have yet to have full knowledge about how our systems operate?
I get that companies are basically the ones to blame, and I know there are alternatives like the Talos II by Raptor Computing, but still, how do we not have publicly available full schematics for just one modern computer? I’m talking down to firmware-level stuff like proprietary ECs, microcode, hard drive/SSD firmware, network controllers, etc. How do we not have a fully open system yet?
Also on top of what other folks are saying, making a complete modern computer is really fucking hard.
No one is making a 3ghz CPU in their garage. Maybe folks are assembling stm32, or pis, or whatever into their own pcbs, but the machines that make the chips just aren’t hobby level yet. You just have to buy some stuff.
Maybe that’s not your point. Maybe you’re okay with the processor being closed because it is fucking hard to make.
Beyond the hardware now we’re talking making your own drivers and shit. There are resources out there like zephyr, but there’s millions of devices that aren’t covered.
Try writing your own SPI interface for an established MCU and a common periferal. Make sure you include crc, don’t skip it. Maybe skimp and do i2c. It’s fucking hard.
I made a 3.2GHZ CPU in my garage just last week. You just need to be creative when you look at the parts at Home Depot.
I never said it worked.
If you give a million monkeys a piece of glass, one of them will eventually create a 3.2GHz Shakespeare.
Absolutely, creating a complete modern computer is an incredibly complex task. Building a 3GHz CPU from scratch is a monumental challenge, and even assembling components like stm32 or Pis requires a level of expertise. Developing your own drivers, dealing with various peripherals, and ensuring compatibility is tough shit.
However, once the software is written and released under a Free Software license, it will be there forever. As you’ve already stated, it’s hard, but not impossible. I share your hope that one day we will reach the point where such endeavors become more feasible.
Linux exists, so I’m not sure what more you’re asking for at a software level.
You’re never going to get open source computer hardware. The machines that make the chips cost many, many millions of dollars.
Never say never. The phones in our hands are orders of magnitudes more powerful than the computer that took people into space and enabled landing on the moon. Eventually even today’s technology will be obsolete and potentially even easy to replicate in a garage. 2nm processes may be difficult, but 40nm process is certainly not impossible for hobbyists of the future.
To be fair, there is open source hardware- Arduino and whatnot. But a microcontroller is a lot simpler than a full computer.
Years and years ago I built my own 16 bit computer from the nand gates up. ALU, etc, all built from scratch. Wrote the assembler, then wrote a compiler for a lightweight object oriented language. Built the OS, network stack, etc. At the end of the day I had a really neat, absolutely useless computer. The knowledge was what I wanted, not a usable computer.
Building something actually useful, and modern takes so much more work. I could never even make a dent in the hour, max, I have a day outside of work and family. Plus, I worked in technology for 25 years, ended as director of engineering before fully leaving tech behind and taking a leadership position.
I’ve done so much tech work. I’m ready to spend my down time in nature, and watching birds, and skiing.
This isn’t you, is it?
At the end of the day
Way to make me feel incompetent, building all this in a day /s
Some people are trying (RISC-V for instance) but as others pointed out it’s really really hard, especially if you want to make the whole computer free and open source.
First you need an architecture for pretty much all components if you want it to be truly free (how the CPU, ram, motherboard, etc. work, on paper).
Then you need to manufacture these components, and making a modern CPU is insanely complex, even more so when you have a brand new architecture.
Then you need software (firmware, drivers, etc.), and again, on a new architecture, stuff will work differently than it does on existing stuff. So people need to learn how to work on your platform to make software. And obviously you need to make it available to people by selling it somehow.
It’s technically doable but the investment (both monetary and humanly) would be massive and not really something anyone can start on their own as a hobby.
This bird’s-eye view of the process really sells it short. “making a modern CPU is insanely complex” doesn’t even scratch the surface of chip fab.
I mean, some guy did make his own lithography setup in his garage, and last we heard he had managed to fit 1,200 transistors on the same chip. This is just a few transistors shy of the 6,000,000,000 transistors in Intel’s Rocket Lake die.
So if you want your PC to do much beyond blink an LED, you need an industrial photolithography machine. And of course, that entails a clean room, specialized HVAC and sanitation equipment (Intel’s clean rooms have less tolerance for contaminants than hospital clean rooms). Then it’s only a matter of getting the rest of the chip fabrication machines (because the process requires more precision than a human hand). And materials that have extremely specific proportions and purities.
And so it only costs a few hundred million dollars to just make a cpu. And even that was still just glossing over some of the most ridiculous, precise, specialized and esoteric marvels of science and engineering humanity has ever come up with.
Now it’s just a matter of just making all the other parts.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
make his own lithography setup in his garage
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Because money
It’s sad but true. I’m just so baffled as to why? Wouldn’t anyone just be curious to figure out how stuff works? Think of all the brilliant minds out there who are being cut off simply because of corporate greed. Not only that, but they’re deemed as criminals for making it do something it wasn’t intended to do (e.g. Xbox 360 w/ RGH). I just think we’re wasting so much potential to make the world a better place. And we can already see the love behind just using and creating software while following the Free Software philosophy.
My goal is to help people, maybe you or anyone else might be interested, to get to actually USE their computers, understand how they work, etc.
The creator of Libreboot, Leah Rowe, and I are making support for the Dell Optiplex 9020 MT. It’s a Haswell motherboard that supports a i7 4790K, 32GB DDR3 RAM, you can also use a 2080 SUPER (or anything else), without the need for any proprietary BIOS firmware (eventually, we still need to reverse engineer 1-2 blobs). It has internal flashing capabilites, so no need to buy flashing equipment, all you need is an insulated screwdriver to short one of the SERVICE_MODE pins, which unlocks the flash chip basically. This allows you to flash the firmware through the OS, which makes it 10x easier for anyone to start using Libreboot. The motherboard you can buy on eBay right now for about $20, or you can buy the whole PC for like $100-$120. Still though, isn’t enough but it will be a step in the right direction.
It’s more complicated than sheer greed.
The fact of the matter is that actually producing any modern technology takes a massive amount of work, and up til this point, no one has gathered enough motivation and free time to do it all for any modern hardware just out of pure altruism. There’s a reason why companies have to pay hundreds of engineers a huge amount of money to get anything developed; those people are not going to do this incredibly difficult work just for fun and moral satisfaction. It’s easy to point the finger at corporate greed for some things being locked down, and to be clear, there’s plenty of valid criticism to go around, but it has to be at least considered that most of this stuff would never have been developed in the first place if it wasn’t for those same companies. Your average person is not going to assemble a motherboard from parts and schematics.
Wouldn’t anyone just be curious to figure out how stuff works?
To this point, quite frankly, no. Average people simply do not care about this very much. They want to just turn on their magic internet box, get their work done, play their games, consume their media, and move on without any further fuss. The fact of the matter is that most people have no clue what a BIOS is, could not care less if it was proprietary or not, and have zero interest in learning about flashing them or why they would ever want to do that.
You can wire up a computer like people did in the eighties. Beep beep boop boop.
Designing modern cpus is crazy complicated and expensive.
Manufacturing is also crazy expensive. You need millions worth of machines and an industrial clean room.
I’m just so baffled as to why?
Why haven’t you? Same thing applies for everyone else.
If you had the skill to make an actually useful modern computer you probably work somewhere like that as your job, and you sure as shit don’t want to do that at home too. Especially since you’d probably never make any of your monetary investment back, let alone paying for your time.
While I understand the challenges you’re pointing out, it’s crucial to acknowledge that not everyone working on personal projects expects immediate financial gains. Some individuals are motivated by a passion for exploration and a desire to contribute to open and accessible technology. Even if replicating a professional-grade computer at home is challenging, there’s value in fostering a community-driven approach to technology, aiming for transparency and independence from corporate interests. The pursuit of knowledge and the potential for positive societal impact can be significant motivators, transcending immediate financial returns.
I saw a snake-oil kickstarter for one of these about ten years ago.
I used to use the Trisquel forums, Trisquel being a fully-free operating system and at the time the only one that could be installed by a total novice. There was a guy there, Chris, who was heavily involved with the company ThinkPenguin. Chris seemed genuinely passionate about free software and actually seemed pretty genuine when plugging his products, he’d point out the specific points where his products failed to be fully free and sometimes give examples of competitors who could do better and some justification for why he didn’t feel it was realistic for ThinkPenguin to match that. I had some respect for him and some of the stuff he wrote on that forum really helped me understand the movement better.
Anyway, like ten years ago someone made a post about a kickstarter for a new company called Purism, which was fundraising to build a fully free high-end laptop I think by the end of that calendar year. A couple hours later the CEO of Purism (his name was Todd) found his way to that thread and explained to us how exciting this was and he intends to use Trisquel as the operating system and we should totally support this financially, blah blah blah. He’s giving lengthy replies to every single comment made in that thread. At some point Chris writes an extremely extensive response about why every detail Todd has promised does not seem realistic, including recognizing from the kickstarter photos exactly which computer Todd intended to use as a base and why he felt that choice made no sense. I didn’t really understand any of the details here to be honest, but yeah. Todd gives a one-sentence reply to Chris’ post where he addresses zero of Chris’ points and instead simply tells us that Chris is slandering his project because Chris is afraid of seeing a competitor succeed and doesn’t actually care about free software.
At that point I didn’t really need to understand the finer points to figure out which one of the two was more reliable. It was so blatantly transparent that Purism became a running joke in the forums.
Todd obviously ended up backtracking on virtually everything, using a brilliant scheme of weakening the promises in the kickstarter description over and over and over and dodging questions about that. He made a bunch of petitions to the FSF to certify his stuff on the grounds that their certification requirements (all those details initially promised for his laptops) were unrealistic to achieve. No shit. He also created an online (change.org? not sure about that) petition to Intel, which was sure-fire going to work, I’m pretty confident Intel did remove their management engine because I definitely would have heard more about that if Intel inexplicably decided to ignore that change.org petition.
Oh yeah, and on top of that, because Trisquel was the only FSF-endorsed distribution that was realistic for general-purpose use, he also ended up blowing a bunch of the funding to make his own distro (called “PureOS”) because if he stuck with using Trisquel his customers could easily end up on a forum where his products weren’t taken seriously.
Anyway, his initial kickstarter got like $600,000. He did release a laptop which was functional but not really different from things other companies like Los Alamos and ThinkPenguin had been doing for a while. A few years later he promised a fully libre phone and I think got even more for that than the laptop kickstarter. Last I heard only a very tiny fraction of the orders had actually been filled, and people were upset about that because it was already a few years late and also the company was desperately trying to remove all evidence that full refunds on request had been promised for the first couple years of preorders. Also the phones remained like six times as expensive as the (at the time) new pinephones and only functional for people who were extremely generous with how they define the word “functional”.
I’ll admit I did find some entertainment in this, but overall this shit was really depressing because not only could the funding Purism got have gone to other projects, but, more significantly, everyone who got scammed will be much more hesitant about supporting libre projects in general.
edit: Just checked /r/purism, the sidebar reads “PLEASE! Read at least 10 posts here before considering whether to place a Librem order! :) System76 is also a great alternative for Linux laptops.” Sounds like a community of happy customers.
