I always assumed credit scores were an integral and historic part of the American financial system.
They were not, they are very recent，most of your parents didn’t have credit scores growing up, and as you can probably tell or at least intuit, it’s mostly just a b******* scheme for those with capital to accrue more capital by invading your privacy.
It sucks but things were worse before, especially if you were black.
Or an immigrant. Or a woman (especially if you’re pregnant). Or if you lived near black people or immigrants. Or if you had long hair. Or maybe the local bank manager just didn’t like you. These were all acceptable reasons to deny your loan application prior to credit scores.
They literally made decisions based on things you can’t control. Banks are now legally prohibited from even asking these things. If you notice, people working at a bank will never ask “where are you from?”
Fuck I sound like a bootlicker but the net result was that it took away some control of the rich to influence social mobility.
But rich people are living organisms and their think tanks are the smartest. They’ve already found ways around it.
As time moves on, a lot of things containing racial bias have gotten more abstract. For example, we don’t segregate schools by law anymore, but African-Americans do tend to live in neighborhoods together, those neighborhoods tend to have lower property values, and schools are funded by the taxes on property values. Segregation is still there, but you have to go a few layers deep to find it.
However, as its been forced to get more abstract, it’s also become less effective. Without absolute prohibitions against African-Americans attending the same schools as white people, there has been more upwards mobility of African-Americans to live in better neighborhoods with better schools and end cycles of poverty. Still, it would be better if we got rid of this dumb property tax system for schools altogether.
Credit scores are the same. It abstracted away the racism. It’s still there, causing unnecessary hardship, but not to the degree previous systems did. There is more room for upwards mobility, but that doesn’t mean we should leave it as it is.
Came here to say this. Credit scores are meant to remove some of the racial and social bias from the decision making. That was the idea anyway.
Mass incarceration in the modern era makes that a hard comparison to square up.
Are you better off today as a middle class black suburbanite throwing a third of your paycheck at a subprime loan for a house you couldn’t even legally own 40 years ago? Yeah, sure, I guess.
Are you better off today as a teenager in a Texas supermax prison without working A/C, working 12 hour shifts for less than a dollar an hour, while the state government frets that there aren’t enough people like you to meet some arbitrary imprisonment quota? Doubtful.
Post-Reagan, society has been a decided mixed black for African Americans.
It’s not like they didn’t look through your financial history before then - they just didn’t have to show their working publicly, which meant you could ne discriminated against for any number of things
So the same now, except now all personal data is located in one place according to the rules they set, from which they can sell your data and preemptively block you or refuse to meet you to discuss your practical repayment capability.
All of those could be and were done before, only it wasn’t public so you had no way to also know your score.
Your hypothesis is that before computers and data centers were used in business to cross-reference, centralize, analyze and store private and public data, and before a personal credit rating system was implemented, businesses were using cross referenced, centralized, analyzed mountains of paper files on all potential consumers nationwide, directly related to their business or not, to calculate 300+ million personal credit scores that didn’t exist yet?
You’re taking more than a leap, you’re jumping right off the cliff.
Do they show their work now, or just a score based on a bunch of non-public calculations?
They don’t provide the exact formula, but they will provide what influences the score and their record of those factors.
That isn’t public.
It requires trust to believe that they are telling the truth about what impacts the score in a positive or negative way.
Plus they say it in the most vague way so people can’t ‘game the system’ which is not an issue if the system is fair because ‘gaming the system’ is doing the thing they want you to do. Sometimes it looks like the things they say are accurate, but other times they appear to have the opposite effect because of some interaction they aren’t telling us. Like the fact that paying off a loan too early reduces your credit score even though having fewer debts is supposed to increase it.
The calculation is opaque to both you and the banker but it is calculated the same way by the agency that does it.
If your credit application is rejected, they are required to show you the score and you’re entitled to free copies of your credit report data (historically you couldn’t see your data or had to pay for it). The banker can give generic advice on improving your score and point out things in your credit report them at look bad and suggest ways to finesse them, but the calculation and decision are mostly out of his hands. He doesn’t really know
I tried to open a bank account at a credit union while homeless. Had $42k on my direct express card, finally on SSI, lump sum was for the previous year while unable to work.
No debts, never used a credit card. Couldn’t open a bank account. Had to go thru a program that assigned me a fake credit card debt that I had to pay off for 6 months to get my credit score high enough.
Credit scores are a scam.
What they’re describing is a pretty common financial product. They process a small unsecured loan which is placed straight into a escrow account with autopay so as far as the credit calculation goes they have a loan for which they are making consistent payments on until it’s paid off. It’s basically a hack to get some positive line items on the credit report to to try drag the score up a little
It’s our version of China’s social credit score.
Not even close 🤣 what an absurd thing to say. You really think following social rules is the same thing as participating and having a financial history of posting back lent money is the same thing?
Edit you know what, never mind I see you all trying to compare imaginary insurance Facebook scenarios and pretending like that’s how a FICO works. 👌👍.
When I was younger, I was denied housing because I had no credit rating. Not a bad rating mind you, but no rating at all, because I did not use credit cards or anything else that would get me in Experian’s system. I was penalized for never accruing debt. The system is absurd.
If you ask someone to loan you some money (a line of credit), they might reply:
“Hmm, has anyone else loaned you money before, and you paid it back, showing you can be responsible with a loan?”
Even if it’s just a friend asking for you to spot them $50, you might ask a mutual friend if that person actually pays them back.
It makes sense that not having a credit history is negative for them.
In Europe this still doesn’t even really exists. You just bring your proof of capital/value/timely payment stubs to the bank.
Germany has SCHUFA. Fairly similar to credit reports. Pretty much necessary to successfully rent an apartment (in Berlin at least).
Though, there isn’t the expectation that you have accrued debt in order to have a good score, like in the US.
Oh, in America you still have to provide those things too, AND have a decent credit score.
Yes it’s really the same thing. A basic number to reflect how good of a citizen you are. The metrics used are irrelevant
Exactly. The number is a score of how profitable you are to the system which in the US profitable is the only metric anyone cares about. Seems the same just seems like the difference is the societal preference.
There’s no such thing as “China’s social credit score”. All of thar came from small local projects and miss translating articles.
Edit: https://youtu.be/Kqov6F00KMc for the 10000 people whose just today are learning about it.
That is not true. I have had Chinese friends tell me that for example you cannot fly on a plane if your social score is too low.
The 10,000 part is a reference to this XKCD comic
Credit scores didn’t exist but credit bureaus date back to the mid 1800s in the USA. Also, as others have mentioned creditors would do their due diligence and try to assert that you would be able to pay back your loans by doing many of the same things they do now.
This really isn’t some new, crazy concept like you’re making it out to be. The score has only simplified the process.
The score simplified the process for creditors of pre-assessing your risk as a debtor so that they don’t have to put in the work to actually assess your rush a debtor, leading to an irresponsible and imbalanced credit system that you can’t benefit from unless you are born on the right side of the tracks.
I didn’t say the concept was new or crazy.
This is a way for operators of capital to accrue more capital and more easily distance themselves from everybody else, whose information they profit from, rather than creating opportunities.
I am not on our mortgage on the house that I own with my husband. I am employed, full time. At the time I had no debt, and the car loan was in my husband’s name.
They told me I couldn’t be on the mortgage because I had no credit score.
that’s how it works. you have no credit history you can’t be trusted wiht a major loan like a mortgage.
you need credit history.
creditors would do their due diligence and try to assert that you would be able to pay back your loans by doing many of the same things they do now.
In the Netherlands this would boil down to:
- proof of employment (pay check and statement from your boss)
- summary of outstanding debts
That’s it. The BKR system only tells you any outstanding debts (such as a car or phone to pay off) or if you stil owe significant money to debtors. It doesn’t tell you how long you’ve been a good citizen.
