I always believed religion was incompatible with a society rooted in addressing material reality, although I know we have have religious users and wanted to hear people’s takes.
GNU/Linux for sure.
I’m bracing for people to say Buddhism but tbh Buddhism has a strong inclination towards not helping out others because “it’s their karma” as well as the catholic church version of Buddhism, namely Vajrayana, being culpable for lots of criticisms that people level against the Catholic church.
Islam gets an honourable mention because of their fairly strict prohibition on riba, which is like usury except a souped-up version of it (which is more or less enforced in Islam, unlike most forms of Christianity) and a genuine, enforced commitment to actual charity and not just tithing. Islam is often pretty hostile towards communism but that’s mostly because of material conditions and the fact that their version of Liberation Theology-type leaders mostly get killed.
I also think that Sikhism gets an honourable mention because it’s quite radical, abolishing caste and demanding that justice be upheld, even if it requires violence or putting one’s life on the line to defend it. I know in India there was a split in the communist movements in the north, where Sikhism is most prevalent, over whether the revolution would be fought with modern weapons or with the traditional weapons of Sikhism (the kirpan, the khanda, the katar, the chakram etc.) I get why they are of central religious significance to Sikhs but idk why it’s cause for a split though; the last human Sikh guru owned a musket.
It’s probably due to being culturally adjacent as much as anything but I’d say that Christianity, specifically Liberation Theology, is the most compatible with communism especially given the Colombian ELN and the FSLN (Sandinistas) in Nicaragua.
Personally I think that religion requires a foundation of idealism that is inherently incompatible with materialism and I would like to see the gradual erosion of religion such that it exits the political and ideological spheres and gets relegated to cultural practice, like what you see with something like Shintoism as practiced by most Japanese people or ancestor worship in East Asia; lots of people build shrines to their ancestors and celebrate relevant days of observance but plenty of people don’t actually pray to their ancestors or believe that the heavens have influence on the world. This is a lot like how westerners visit graves and do things like talk to the deceased or write letters to them or leave flowers, alcohol, and mementos (*gasp!* almost as “offerings” except that only the Orientals leave offerings - westerners are above such superstitious practices, right??) If the world can reach a stage where religious rites and observances are performed due to cultural habit rather than belief in the supernatural then I think we would be on the right track.
Islam gets an honourable mention because of their fairly strict prohibition on riba, which is like usury except a souped-up version of it (which is more or less enforced in Islam, unlike most forms of Christianity)
With how Islamic banking/finance is currently widely being practiced, can you really say that prohibition of riba is being strictly, or even “more or less”, enforced in contemporary Islamic practice? I think the best that can be said is that the prohibition is observed in form, but not in spirit. In my very limited experience (please take all this jabbering with a ton of salt; I’m neither Muslim myself nor any sort of specialist in Islamic finance) with Islamic financing on the legal side, it largely seems to involve private or sometimes state-owned financial institutions using profit-sharing, joint-venture, and/or commodity sale contracts to imitate the practical effects and consequences of conventional fixed or variable interest financing instruments while still formally complying with the riba prohibition. Essentially, the bank’s technically not earning any interest off the principal; just “profit” from commodity sales/company shares. Seems to me that what’s been done is just a thousand convoluted and fancy ways of ensuring that the surplus value reaped by the bank is not vulgar “interest”, but some other technically non-prohibited form of (or names for) extracting value from the labour of others, thus reducing the practice to basically a matter of formal compliance without any application of its underlying or originally intended principles - i.e., the moral idea that any financial exploitation of others (in other words, capitalism) inherently corrodes your soul.
I also can’t see any real difference in material interests between Islamic and non-Islamic financial institutions: both are typically just extreme concentrations of financial capital, privately owned, within capitalist societies motivated by their own reproduction/perpetuation/expansion through systemic extraction of surplus value through investment in market commodities and productive concerns. In the worst case scenario, I can see how leftists fixating on riba as a theoretical concept leads to idealist mystification of productive/property relations, frustrating the materialist analysis of that which is central to Marxism.
Basically, it’s all like this mostly because of (like you said) the destruction of pretty much all 20th century efforts towards socialism in Muslim-majority countries (except Libya? But I’m not aware whether Gaddafi promoted Islamic financial principles), resulting in those Muslim-majority countries being dominated by reactionary politics, leading to this utterly debased version of Islamic finance being the global industry norm.
I don’t disagree with what you have said here but I was also intentionally avoiding getting into the weeds with interpretation and real-world application of Sharia because it’s super complex.
Of course Riba has been one of those things that has always been hotly debated in Islam and it’s something that an Islamic jurist could spend a lifetime debating and you’d be able to split a denomination in two over your take on it.
Ultimately I think that Islamic jurisprudence was a product of its time and, at that time, critique of the economy in a fully-realised way didn’t exist. Speaking as an outsider, I think that some of the basic problems were identified in trading and finance but the root of the economic problem was not fully ascertained until much later; if you can’t diagnose a complex societal problem accurately then you’re almost certainly not going to be able to fix it. At best you’re going to be taking a stab in the dark, which is what I think Islamic jurisprudence was doing with Riba or with edicts about charity or what shape a caliphate should take or what have you. So my sympathy for the prohibition on Riba is limited because it lacked a material basis (and I think this is where religious jurisprudence more broadly tends to fall down - the inherent idealism at the core makes it critically flawed.)
A+ for effort, but as for execution? Ehh, not so great.
I also think that this is where other things fall down like religious decrees on not turning away the needy from your door - is that in a literal sense? What implications does it have for refugees in the modern world where your government can effectively maintain its borders very strictly? What implications does today’s ability for transporting masses of people anywhere around the world in a matter of hours have? Obviously back in Muhammad’s era, refugees would almost always travel within their local region and it was extremely rare to have vast masses of people or entire populations fleeing from one part of the world to somewhere entirely different. Also the economic implications are very complex - in Muhammad’s day constructing housing was a much simpler affair and if people needed extra food or work then they’d be able to utilise the commons or to work the untended land on the outskirts of a town or village. These sorts of things options rarely exist in the developed world today. So while it probably worked quite well for the time it existed in, the world is a very different place today and shit is so much more complex than it was.
And you’re absolutely right about the creation of infinite loopholes to arrive at roughly the same destination in a way that circumvents the spirit of the law while technically adhering to the letter of the law (more or less). This is exactly why Ikea is a non-profit organisation lol.
And there’s no doubt in my mind that probably every Islamic financial institution that exists today bends the rules to the breaking point by charging things like “administrative” fees and stuff like that.
And really, if we look at this from a broad perspective, I think that the prohibition on Riba could be grouped in with all sorts of socialist utopian and reformist efforts as being guilty of the same general attempts to fix the system by tweaking at the dials rather than rebuilding it from the ground up.
This is why I give it an honourable mention - it was a good attempt. Flawed, insufficient, poorly articulated, vulnerable to exploitation, yes, but it was a good attempt all the same.
I think that a serious discussion on Riba would be a really good angle to agitate for socialism with a Muslim though and tbh as an atheist Marixst, it’s those kinds of pressure points that I’m most interested in; I’d be fascinated in hearing what a Muslim would have to say about how they think Muhammad would respond today if he saw how private equity firms like BlackRock are grossly distorting the property market and squeezing every last penny out of people who have no other options for housing available. Something tells me he wouldn’t just be like “Alright guys, this arrangement is totally fine as long as you don’t jack the rents up too high, okay?”
Ultimately I think that Islamic jurisprudence was a product of its time and, at that time, critique of the economy in a fully-realised way didn’t exist.
More precisely, it’s that the Quran and the hadiths - the written sources - that were a product of their time. Jurisprudence - if understood as the legal theorising and interpretation being done upon prior texts - is a continuing process that’s still ongoing today, and it’s definitely here where modern forces of global capitalism have influenced modern Muslim legal theorists into moulding the orignial texts into the current industry/academic edifice that’s labelled as “Islamic finance”. So yeah, technically speaking, it’s not that “Islamic jurisprudence was a product of its time”, but “is a product of its time”: that time being present-day global capitalist hegemony. (Sorry, I’m probably nitpicking here; I know you said you want to avoid going into the weeds with interpretation and real-world application. I think I would agree generally with most of what you’ve written above; just taking the opportunity to air out and give some structure to a few thoughts that had been jangling around my head for some time.)
I’d be fascinated in hearing what a Muslim would have to say about how they think Muhammad would respond today if he saw how private equity firms like BlackRock are grossly distorting the property market and squeezing every last penny out of people who have no other options for housing available. Something tells me he wouldn’t just be like “Alright guys, this arrangement is totally fine as long as you don’t jack the rents up too high, okay?”
True, and I’m aware that there is some existing discourse/scholarship by Muslims on the Islam’s compatibility with socialism as a political movement. Syed Hussein Alatas’s Islam and Socialism provides a good overview, I think. One bit I think is particularly relevant to the concept of riba is where Alatas outlines the position argued for by Oemar Said Tjokroaminoto, who was a nationalist figure in pre-independence Indonesia; Alatas suggests that Tjokroaminoto, in trying to prevent a spilt between the Islamic moderates and radical Marxists in his party (which eventually happened and led to the the radicals joining the Communist Party of Indonesia) attempted a theoretical reconciliation of the contradictions between Islam and socialism (pg. 62-4):-
In 1924, Haji Omar Said Tjokroaminoto, the leader of Sarekat Islam, then the biggest political party in Indonesia, published a monograph (113 pages) on Islam and socialism. (…) It arose out of the need to counteract communist propaganda. Tjokroaminoto’s party, the Sarekat Islam, was seriously infiltrated by communist elements which led to a split in 1923.
(…)
Regarding state ownership of the means of production, Tjokroaminoto suggested that this was Islamic. In the time of the Prophet, the state owned and acquired land. It is interesting how Tjokroaminoto linked Marx’s theory of surplus value and its expropriation by the capitalists to Islam. The Islamic prohibition of usury, according to Tjokroaminoto, is the same as a prohibition against the immoral capitalist expropriation of surplus value.’ The reforms carried out by the Prophet were thoroughly in the spirit of socialism. The instances cited by Tjokroaminoto are the following, in his own words:
“With the law of zakat Islam intended to make it obligatory for the rich to spend on behalf of the poor. In the time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) land was the greatest source of livelihood for the working class, and as I have explained earlier, land was owned by the state. Small industry from pre-Islamic times was run by the poor or the slave for the sole profit and welfare of the owners, most of whom were harsh and oppressive. Before the advent of Islam, those who worked in industry were extremely looked down upon by the aristocracy, while the slaves who functioned as labourers were treated as animals by their capitalist masters. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) immediately raised the status of labour and workers. Though he descended from the highest Arab aristocracy, he worked as a trader before his preoccupation as a Prophet took up his entire time. As a recognized prophet he became ‘the spiritual and worldly ruler over Arabs and the Muslim territory, but he mended his own clothes and shoes. The biggest step he took in the direction of industrial socialism was when he raised the status of the slave to that of the free man. The slaves were given rights which they never had before. The slaves were made fellow workers; they were given positions of command in the army, or to become heads of other undertakings, while in yet other spheres as in the family, they became members of the family who treated them as animals before the coming of Islam. That being the case, the slaves took part in sharing the welfare and the profit of their masters. Truly, the step taken by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) to improve the condition of the working class during his time, was unsurpassed in greatness in the economic history of the world.”
Tjokroaminoto was not blind to the fact that during the last thirteen centuries, despotism, autocracy and egoistic materialism had chiselled at the foundation of Islam. As long as the Qur’an is still with us, the ideal of democracy and socialism in Islam shall remain alive. He said: “If we Muslims truly understand and practise the teachings of Islam, we cannot avoid becoming a true democrat and a true socialist.
Check out the writings of BR Ambedkar, who was a contemporary of Gandhi. He rewrote a lot of Buddhist stories to give them a very socialist bent, with the aim of converting millions of low-caste Indians from Hinduism (which kept them down) to Buddhism which would give them greater representation in India’s parliamentary system.
Yeah, some of those Reddit-Atheist takes were painful to read on one of the other recent posts. There’s a whole tradition of religious individuals being pushed towards anarchist and communist ideologies. Some Catholic priests have even had an about-face, getting so involved in liberation theology as to be excommunicated. Still making painfully slow progress in the Quran, but there’s a lot of stuff about supporting the poor, hungry, and sick. I’ve worked with a lot of (non-Evangelical) Christians on praxis. You can also say a lot about stuff like Wicca and its dogshit creator, but I’ve known a few witches to also get involved in stuff. If religious people couldn’t be revolutionary, then the government wouldn’t have killed people like Malcolm X, MLK, John Brown, and the preachers behind so many peasant riots in England back in the day.
and the preachers behind so many peasant riots in England back in the day.
Could you elaborate on this subject?
So to the top of my mind there’s Levelers and Diggers, as well as a couple other groups, but struggling to recall at the top of my mind. The German Peasants War was also cool. Naturally the fascists tried to claim Müntzer for their own, but obviously they just did that because the guy was a folk hero.
Cathars and Hussites are maybe the most famous examples (Though, from France and Bohemia rather than England), they had multiple crusades called against them. In the Albigensian Crusade alone some estimated 200,000 to 1,000,000 Cathars (Albigensians) were killed by the Church.
You can also say a lot about stuff like Wicca and its dogshit creator, but I’ve known a few witches to also get involved in stuff.
As a Wiccan, I can confirm, Gerald Gardner was a weirdo little freak who sucked major ass. He gets credited with codifying the thing we now call Wicca, but his contributions tend to get overblown, since tons of that stuff was done by other people, especially women, who were a part of that movement. Women who were, by and large, cooler than he was.
Also, one of the more important primary source texts that influenced Wicca’s development was Aradia, The Gospel of the Witches, wherein the Goddess Diana gives birth to a messianic figure named Aradia, who teaches oppressed peasants how to do magicsl class Warfare, which basically boils down to sabotaging crop yeilds, and poisoning priests and lords. It’s incredibly cool and based.
So I’m an Atheist but here’s a hot take: most if not all religions are kind of equally compatible and incompatible with communism in the same way they’re equally compatible and incompatible with capitalism. The concept of Diagetic Existentialism is largely concerned with realities that are understood to be fictional in nature but I also think it goes a long way towards explaining how you can simultaneous have the American religious right as well as people unironically proclaiming that “JESUS WAS A SOCIALIST” in the same timeline. They’re both working with the same material and sources but at the end of the day its all kinda in what you choose to take away from it.
All religions are compatible with communism except for american [and by extension western] protestantism
ngl catholic and protestant Christianity are both on the fash watchlist. you can’t enable mass genocide and multiple wars in the middle east and keep your commie card.
You’re clearly forgetting that Catholics can be absolved of all wrongdoing by going into a little box and telling a priest that they did a bad thing and then saying a handful of ritualized prayers.
That’s not actually how confession works, but that doesn’t stop most Catholics from believing it is.
Add Russian Orthodox Church to that. The exiled parts of the ROC literally worked for the German government during WW2 and were given conquered land to manage.
Also, let’s not forget the Christian justification for chattel slavery and for why killing Muslim people is a-okay.
Catholicism is genuinely the least-compatible religious formation with communism, and one need only look at their having their own state with a theocratic master of policy and a vast amount of wealth to understand why. If you want to imagine a non-papal Catholicism, knock yourself out, but what exists now is in opposition to communist organization.
