The UN passed the resolution calling it genocide so I agree with that, I trust a democratic vote of the UN despite their inability to actually do anything compared to South Africa. I’m still going to vote Biden though because I know about project 2025 and know that we will probably get genocided in our own country if he loses. It sucks but that’s how I feel.
If the only thing Biden ever does is keep Trump from office it will be a net win.
The IRA and the CHIPS Act were pretty legit - granted, I think trump might’ve passed some version of the CHIPS act as well. Seems like a no-brainer, imo, but the one that did it gets the credit!
What do you mean by IRA like I know Biden is of Irish descent and I would whole heartedly support an American backed IRA but I doubt thats what happened.
I’m not sure the ends justify the means.
? There are no “means”. all you can do is vote, and then something is going to happen depending on who wins. It’s not “do bad thing to get good result”, it’s “do neutral thing to get less bad result” or “do nothing to get shite result”.
Project 2025 is a conservative plan to immediately reshape the executive branch and replace most people with Trump loyalists immediately if he wins. It includes dismantling the FBI and Department of Homeland Security, because while Republicans like to claim to be tough on crime, they really don’t like an independently functioning Justice Department that has shown their leader to be a criminal.
The same fearmongering we heard in 2016 and 2020. You must save Democracy for the 12th year in a row by voting Democrat!!
After Trump dies some other Republican will take over that says crazier shit and then you must keep saving Demoracy by always voting Democrat. Never vote third party.
Well historically I’ve voted independent. I’m Canadian, but we have similar party issues.
Honestly seeing shit like this though, if it really is just fearmongering, it’s fucking working. This shit looks horrifying to me, I’d probably end up voting for Biden just to not let trump in. And I fucking hate Biden.
The line is wearing thin, since democracy keeps being in greater peril even when we elect Democratic majorities.
Democrats would rather protect the filibuster than democracy.
I just perused the Wikipedia page, doesn’t seem like a boogeyman to me. Considering it’s backed by the Heritage Foundation. It seems horrifying to be honest.
Possible genocide in the USA should one of the two viable presidential candidates gets elected?
Will the democrats stop pursuing gun control considering this imminent threat of genocide?
I’m still going to vote Biden though because I know about project 2025 and know that we will probably get genocided in our own country if he loses. It sucks but that’s how I feel.
Instead of picking between a genocide and another you should just vote for someone else and don’t support any criminal.
Stein says that Russia had no other choice but to invade Ukraine and commit genocide there, and Cornel West has a similar position I believe.
If you don’t want to vote for a genocide apologist, you basically can’t vote.
she called the invasion illegal, and the only extent to which your comment is correct, cornel west agrees with **that**.
>Stein says that Russia had no other choice but to invade Ukraine and commit genocide there, and Cornel West has a similar position I believe.
neither of them said this. your comment is straight misinformation.
Damn, that’s at least a full step above a “Huh” with an inquisitively arched eyebrow.
You know what would aid Gaza? Not giving money and weapons to the people blowing them up
Wrote this before and I’ll write it again. People need to understand the broader context here:
Tough for Biden to balance between:
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Leaning too heavily into Israel and siding with genocide.
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Leaning too heavily against, and being accused of being pro-Hamas.
Worse, if Biden withdraws all aid to Israel and then Israel is hit with another terrorist attack, manufactured or not, that’s the end of Biden. I think we can all agree that right-wing media propaganda is very effective and the ads would write themselves.
Within the electorate resides Jewish Americans who still largely support Israel by the polling, and the progressives and Palestinian Americans (a far smaller voting bloc).
The best Biden is going to manage in toeing the line is singling out Netanyahu (who himself is unpopular in Israel) instead of Israel itself and actions like this.
The risk obviously being that if Biden loses this election, the guy who wouldn’t just indirectly but likely directly commit genocide against Palestinians would come in and you certainly wouldn’t hear the words, “indiscriminate bombing” from Trump’s facial sphincter.
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Leaning too heavily into Israel and siding with genocide.
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Leaning too heavily against, and being accused of being pro-Hamas.
So the choices are siding with genocide, and merely being accused of being pro-Hamas?
Seems like a clear choice, since accusations of being pro-Hamas get flung around for merely wanting to genocide Palestinians just more slowly.
The caveat being missed here is that aid to Israel is also contingent on their defense. If the long-time precedent for aid to Israel is withdrawn and more Jews die, how do you think that is going to bode for the votes of — let me check — 7.6 million Jewish Americans? Trump gets in, and then what? Biden fails the purity test and everyone critical of Biden pats themselves on the backs as Trump steamrolls Palestinians not just indirectly but directly?
It shouldn’t be this difficult for an actual leader to stop politicking and do the right thing. This is like Bill Clinton ignoring the Rwandan genocide. Or Reagan collaborating with the Guatemalan genocide. Or Nixon ignoring the Bengali genocide and directing the Cambodian genocide that enabled the Khmer Rouge genocide. On second thought, Biden’s an exemplary United States President. /s
This is like Bill Clinton ignoring the Rwandan genocide
Arguably this is because he didn’t ignore the Bosniak genocide but then NATO was criticized for getting involved.
It’s my personal belief that we should intervene militarily to stop genocides, but there’s influential “leftist” thinkers who seem to disagree. Some will still say the US shouldn’t have gotten involved with Kosovo, and I believe Chomsky notoriously denied the Cambodian genocide was even happening.
Of course, the right answer is to say fuck these people and get involved anyway. We shouldn’t bow to political disagreement when it comes to stopping genocides.
Whenever you give me a data-driven solution to the problem I proposed with the 7.6 million Jewish Americans who are sympathetic to Israel and Biden definitely needing their vote more so than the 160,000 Palestinian Americans, you let me know.
It would not be the end for Biden. That’s hyperbole. Also why are we pressuring anti genocide people to come out and vote regardless, but taking it for granted that pro genocide people can’t be pressured at all.
You know who you’re never going to get to vote for Biden again? The Muslim communities that are actually in mourning right now because they know people dying in Gaza. The same ones that are key voting groups in the Rust Belt. Which is the same area that Trump used to win in 2016.
The Republicans are already calling him terrorist pedophile. Doing something to stop the GOP from running baseless attack ads is useless.
The only one trying to lose this election is Biden. There are legions of progressives ready to hold their noses and vote for him. But he keeps running to the right. And we’ll keep staying home.
You’re saying he’d be fine if a terrorist attack occurred after withdrawing aid to Israel? Sorry I just can’t agree with that. He’d be toast and the 7 million Jewish Americans would turn on him in a second, amplified all the more by right-wing propaganda that doesn’t just influence Republicans but the centrists and even many Democrats.
He’s doing quite the opposite from running to the right. He’s completely shifted his position from lockstep support for Israel to letting ceasefire votes go through and publicly calling out Netanyahu.
Biden already signaled he’d be harder on Israel than Trump. There really isn’t any more that needs to be said. It’s holding the nose and supporting Biden now for the next 8 months or suffer 4 years of the far, far worse guy.
Worse, if Biden withdraws all aid to Israel and then Israel is hit with another terrorist attack, manufactured or not, that’s the end of Biden. I think we can all agree that right-wing media propaganda is very effective and the ads would write themselves.
Just scream “vote blue no matter who” at the pro-Israel Biden supporters.
I’m sick of people not saying the quiet part out loud: If every time there is a choice between doing the things progressives and leftists want the threat of moderate and liberal voters abandoning the party then we’re fucked anyway. Even if you’re optimistic and say “No no, the number of progressives and leftists is growing! We just have to be patient!” Guess what happens when progressives and leftists finally start winning primaries? That’s right, moderates and liberals will abandon the party.
There no point in delaying any longer. If the moderates and liberals will abandon the party if Biden stopped sending weapons to Israel then let’s get it over with.
That phrase was never meant for center right democrats, it was only there to sheepdog those who demand candidates not beholden to the billionaire class. You can’t “vote blue no matter who” those types, they’ll vote republican because at the end of the day most of them belong to social classes not threatened by conservatism, 4 years is no skin off their back, they may even see their IRAs grow. We’re nothing but a voting bloc to them, and that’s why things like Malcolm X’s quote on white moderates is so relatable to many non black progressives, both groups know what it’s like to be only included in appearance and only spoken to when votes are needed. How many more black elected officials do we have now, and yet the Democrats still fail Black voters perennially. I would have to ignore 60 year of history to think the progressive cause would do better if (and that’s a big if) we can get more of them elected. If there’s a path forward through the democratic party, it’s eluded the black community for long enough to see cop lynchings increase and I don’t think ‘progressive issues’ like ‘stop killing the environment before we all die’ have the time necessary to go the same route that’s been taken from Malcolm X to now.
Entropy is a thing.
What I mean by that is it’s far, far easier to smash a puzzle than to put it back together, let alone to incorporate new pieces. The damage done by Trump in merely 4 years could not be reversed if you got AOC with Bernie in there in 8 years let alone possibly 4. At this juncture, with the fragility of our system and the courts already stacked, maintaining some semblance of stability is overwhelmingly more crucial than expecting massive leaps.
I’m all for going full anti-Israel; but that doesn’t change the fact that every single political advisor is pointing Biden to precarious polling data; that blindly withdrawing all aid to Israel is simply NOT a popular position going into the election — at least yet.
These are his ‘only’ choices only because identifying the broader issue of Israeli occupation and settlement (the core complaints of Palestinians and the reason why Hamas exists) puts at risk US interests in the region - namely Israel’s projection of strength throughout the middle east.
The protection of US neo-colonial and imperial interests is the reason why Biden is in a tough position, and the reason why leftists will never be satisfied by stern words by Biden.
Oh no, he will be accused of being pro-Hamas. Just like when you criritize him you are accused of being pro-Trump, or if you critize evil NATO countries are doing, you are called pro-Russian. If people are that stupid to not see this clear tactic that everyone who critiques me must support my enemies, then you should maybe they shouldn’t use the same tactic when it suits them.
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It’s a waste of time — Especially in an election year with so much on the line and post-primaries — to criticize Biden and instead better to criticize the groups who continue to support Israel. When the polls shift, the administration will shift… As has already occurred.
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I don’t give a fuck if you do, so long as you vote and support Biden in November. Palestinians and Ukrainians are counting on us, and the guaranteed-alternative is significantly-worse. I just had some other fool tell me they’re voting 3rd-party, so they are clearly supporting the enemies. I hope you’re smarter.
You know what would really, really aid Gaza?
Hamas releasing all hostages in exchange for a cease-fire.
But they won’t. The PR bonanza — successful, by the sound of apparently ~99% of this community — at the expense of civilian innocents has been too good to stop anything, yet.
I am really disappointed with the discourse concerning Biden’s handling of the most recent Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Everyone is acting like Biden invented our alliance with Israel and is somehow personally responsible for our support of Israel. Geopolitical alliances are complicated matters that touch everything from international reputation to national security. They are fostered over decades. We have obligations to Israel that precede Biden and the recent conflict.
I understand the moral positions people are taking, and I agree that a genocide is taking place. But with anything geopolitical, these issues must be approached without hard lines and moral absolutism, because those ideals are what both sides are using to justify the atrocities we are witnessing. They both feel morally justified, and that the other side has crossed some hard lines. That is how diplomacy breaks down.
Those of you that want to see an end to the conflict need to understand that the official US position at this moment is aligned with you. But so many of you are proposing “simple” solutions that will not achieve that outcome. If we end support for Israel, they will not stop the genocide. What we will lose is leverage in negotiating peace and we will weaken the alliance with Israel, and the genocide will continue unhindered by US calls for restraint. You may argue that Israel relies on this alliance for security, and that is true, but you assume that other super powers would not jump at the chance to replace the US as a close ally to a nuclear power in the middle east.
Let’s not forget how rash reactionary approaches to geopolitics threatened the NATO alliance during the Trump presidency. Our allies are already doubting if the US will honor the treaty, and this doubt extends to Taiwan, too. Weakening these alliances gives power to our enemies, full stop. Do you want to see war break out in the Pacific? Russia to expand its empire eastward? The Israel-Palestine conflict to extend to other Arab nations? Damaging these alliances will cause more war, not less.
Outrage against Israel is justified. But look past your nose before you jeopardize our key alliances. Diplomacy is slow and frustrating, but it is better than more war.
But look past your nose before you jeopardize our key alliances. Diplomacy is slow and frustrating, but it is better than more war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_2023_Israel–Hamas_war
There’s a genocide happening right now with USA support where thousand of childrens have already been murdered. Israel is bombing neighbor countries and the whole middle east is boiling as a result. They are not seeking diplomacy they are seeking war.
So we should abandon diplomacy precisely when it is needed most? When we withdraw our support and Iran and Egypt join the conflict, will it be easier to stomach the killing of even more children in more nations? After we cede our influence in the middle east and China expands its influence to fill the vacuum, we will be able to honor our treaty with Taiwan after an emboldened China begins bombing and killing their children?
This is the macabre calculus of geopolitics. This is the risk of reactionary policy. All of this is a hypothetical worse case scenario, but one thing is certain: if we withdraw our support, Israel will lose any incentive to stop the killing. More will die. And that would be the best case scenario.
diplomacy
To send israel government “whatever it needs” and additional aid is the opposite of diplomacy. The really reason they are getting away with a genocide is because they have the west backing.
There’s a genocide happening right now under your nose where thousand of kids are getting killed, this is already the worst case scenario. They are doing exactly what they want to do, they are not seeking diplomacy they want war.
You just stated the point of OPs post. It’s not like when we sent arms to them since the 80s Biden was suddenly like “ok go kill babies”. We should definitely suspend future transactions until at least the end of the current government term though. This whole US is equally responsible is a bit much though.
I’m never leaving lemmy. I love the way it’s common to see normal sane views being widely accepted. I can breathe here.
This is one of those ones that sounds rational but really isn’t.
Nobody said we have to leave Israel completely in the wind. They just want weapons deliveries to stop. Other countries aren’t worried about Democrats holding their alliances. They’re worried the Democrats are following the Republicans down the hole and supporting extreme religious parties. You show your allies you value them by listening to them, not by vetoing their anti starvation measures in the UN for several months.
Eh there’s plenty of people who want to completely abandon Israel, and I’m honestly sympathetic to their viewpoint. There’s definitely people who think any violence against Israeli civilians is justified, although they’re usually heavily downvoted.
I think the comment is perfectly rational when you consider these other comments.
I’m never leaving lemmy. I love the way it’s common to see normal sane views being widely accepted.
A lot of astroturfing bots though. :/
What I really like about here is that nuance is understood and accepted. Very few people have a “bomb, baby, bomb!” approach. We largely agree that this violence is a tragic genocide and needs to stop. But we also understand the political reality in the US, and what our options are. And I think people have done a good job of successfully bringing Biden around on this.
If genocide isn’t a red line for sending military aid then our alliances are already useless. We are the country and the country is us; not some third entity. So a moral failure of this magnitude being forced on us “for the good of our country” just opens the door to more moral failures. And we’re the ones that will have to live in that system.
Furthermore, allies who do have moral standards are now looking at us wondering if our moral failures will extend to keeping our word when it’s not a country that’s entangled itself with our religious conservatives. They are very aware of why we support Israel. And very aware that they do not share Israel’s unique political position.
It’s that enough big picture stuff for you or would like to attempt to rationalize sending weapons to a genocidal regime some more?
Also a genocide is basically something where all kinds of crime are encompassed. Keeping an alliance despite genocide, maybe counterintuitively, makes one less trustworthy of an ally, because an alliance is an agreement, a contract to be held in good faith. There were obligations and agreements taken to not partake in such things, some even directly to the victims.
Biden didn’t invent the alliance to Israel, but when the conflict increased during his term he side-stepped congress to give weapons to them faster, so they can kill more civilians as quick as possible.
Don’t excuse for what he has done. Biden is a war criminal. And having NATO, most powerful minitarly alliance in the World, threatened is no comparison to genocide in Gaza. NATO is a problem just as well, but Israel needs to be stopped ASAP.
Biden did not invent our alliance with israel, but he certainly has strongly supported it for decades and decades: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Nrv5izaTs
Calling the situation complicated and saying there is a lot of nuance has often been used as a cover for israel’s campaign of terrorism, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and now full-speed mask-off genocide. The official US position amounts to nothing because it’s two-faced. Biden will claim he is doing what he can while he bypasses congress and otherwise sneaks weapons to israel to continue the genocide. You ask about theoretical wars while downplaying a genocide happening right now. Somehow you think caring about genocide is rash, but being paranoid about imaginary wars is rational. I don’t know what your intentions are, but your post sounds like a PR piece, urging us to stay calm and take things slow so that israel can complete its mission of genocide in peace.
then stop doing it instead of pretending to care ffs
It’s funny cause as far as I can tell, Americans are the ones pretending to suddenly care about Arabs.
What a strange comment. They’re being genocided. I’m imagining someone in WW2 being like “well now you suddenly care about Jews when you find out the holocaust is happening”, as if that was a bad thing.
It is a bad thing, because it correctly indicates that those people didn’t care about the creation and growth of the social conditions that caused that genocide in the first place.
Gaza didn’t turn into a killing field and prison overnight. This has been designed for decades by Israel. We are all culpable fools for allowing it to ever deteriorate to this point
Americans have cared about arabs one way or the other since 2001, we had wars over this, we took in refugees and interpreters. No one older than 12 thinks this is sudden.
It’s a stretch to say that going to war in the middle east indicated “care” about/for Arab people.
Also, I haven’t checked but I’d bet good money that we’ve gone back on more promises than we’ve actually honored WRT interpreters.
Meaning, to be clear:
We’ve promised a lot of interpreters U.S. visas / citizenship if they helped us in Iraq and Afghanistan, and have probably blocked more from entry to the U.S. than we have allowed.
That is utterly fucked up, and I don’t see why anyone would trust such promises from the U.S. in the future.
