If 85% breaks a speed limit, they should revise that limit because there is clearly something wrong with it.
Speed limits are set based on safety considerations. We don’t change safety rules based on what some people find convenient. If 85% of drivers can’t follow the law, then 85% of drivers can pay a fine / have their licence suspended.
@CorruptBuddha @emergencyfood A 20mph speed limit is based on momentum the human body can withstand without a high likelihood of death.
Every mph over the limit increase the likelihood of a human being dying in a collision.
Speeding in a 20mph zone is very specifically choosing to increase the likelihood of killing someone.
Or, alternatively narrow and calm the road, because something is wrong with it. If a 20mph limit is set, there’s probably a good reason, but it’s not good enough to just put up the signs, you need to make people feel uncomfortable driving more than that on the road via calming measures.
This is definitely the wrong take. If the majority of people are going over the speed limit with no negative results, the speed limit is the issue
Speed limits don’t just serve for driver safety. Noise concerns might also be an issue, and then the speed limit is entirely justified.
There is evidence that 20mph zones do save lives and injuries even if people don’t obey them. This is because they still drive slower than they would in a 30mph zone.
I would agree, however, that if the limit is set to 20mph then the road design needs to be changed to match that, making it uncomfortable for drivers to exceed the limit. Unfortunately the UK is quite institutionally poor at this kind of traffic calming design compared to some of its neighbours.
In the US speed limits are set by 85% of traffic speed on a road. So if the road was set for 30mph, and then you changed it to 20MPH with no other changes, you will immediately get 85% of drivers breaking the “limit.”
Another way to say it is that UK’s department for transport has incompetently designed 85% of their 20mph roads.
Another way to say it, is that they haven’t installed enough average speed cameras.
If you install a few of those, suddenly drivers do manage to keep to the speed limit.
The US system is stupid. Most drivers drive too fast and overestimate their driving capabilities.
Cool create perverse incentives that do nothing to physically stop a car from barreling down a residential street, but also generate tax revenue so now the government is further discouraged from fixing the problem of a car barreling down a residential street, lest they lose revenue. Good job!
@PowerCrazy @mondoman712
The 85% rule is insane. Basically, it means that speed limits are set by the most dangerous drivers.
The streets in my town were set out over 120 years ago. But as usual, cars have usurped the rights of prior users to the point where KSIs or peds and cyclists run at 4x the UK rate, and I don’t even live in Florida. I mean, jaywalking laws were brought in to ease drivers’ consciences about the number of pedestrians they were killing.
@PowerCrazy @mondoman712
Don’t start me on public transit… 120 years ago my town had a fully-fledged tramway system which connected to other local systems spread over hundreds of miles centred on our local railway station.
The tracks were ripped up to provide space for parking…
Uh-oh! I got started!!!
UK highways departments have had essentially zero budget for 2+ decades now. There’s no funding to completely retrofit every single residential street to match the new signage. Most of them are already incredibly narrow and tight compared to your average North American street.
It ends up being kind of naive that drivers will simply respect a new, lower speed limit with no other changes. If the road could previousy accomodate a certain speed then some “arbitrary” sign won’t change this.
But it can’t accommodate that speed, people get injured and killed. Hence why they roll out the 20 zones. The average UK main road is like 1/3 the width of a North American residential cul-de-sac remember.
Tbf 20 through a village where no one’s about is insane
This sounds like a money-making opportunity. If 85% of drivers insist on breaking the law, they should pay. We can then use that money to redesign the road for more traffic calming.
Drivers going 30mph in a 20mph haven’t done anything wrong, the road designers have failed by making unreasonable speed limits, shown by the fact that it is ignored by 85% of people
I think a large part of it is inappropriately making 30 mph areas 20mph and also poor enforcement.
I live on a long wide 20mph road and I can’t stand the people going at 40, 50 or even 60 or 70 mph at times. But I don’t think my road should have been 20mph, it should have been 30mph. It seems it was easier to stick some 20mph signs up to say “we’ve done something” as a way of discouraging some people going at more rediculous speeds and hope most go at 30mph.
Instead what was needed was actual investment in the road - speed bumps, narrowing the road with choke points and passing points, physical rather than painted cycle lanes - that kind of thing.
Fortunately after years of pressure our road is now going to be in a LTZ (Low Traffic Zone). Both ends of my own long road are blocked off to allow pedestrians and cyclists only through, and my main road is being split into 3rds with X-junctions being turned into filters(Instead of X it’s now > and < with no connection). If you’re driving you can only turn into one side street while cyclists and pedestrians can pass through as normal. We’ve had a trial for a while and it’s been very effective - my whole block has been split up with filters so you can’t use it to pass through to reach the main roads around it - this has stopped the arseholes using my road as a shortcut and speeding at 60 mph.
People are still going at 30mph but the twisting and turning through the block means you can’t really get up to anything more than that and also unless you’re going to a house in the block it’s pointless to even enter.
So while I abhor speeding, I would argue these stats reflect bad road management - over relying on 20mph speed limtis as a cheap alternative to actual road management and redeisgns which are expensive (and difficult in many parts of the UK with lots of very old and narrow streets inherited from previous eras).
Sky bridges or tunnels for pedestrians. Reduce the need for people to actually cross the street, where possible.
@PseudoSpock @BananaTrifleViolin, or we can design the road so driving at safe speeds is the intuitive choice.
Streets are for people and their daily activities. Roads are for getting to places quickly.
Speed bumps are the worst possible solution, they often mean if you’re in a conventional car you have to come to a near complete stop and if you’re in a large SUV you can cross at 20mph. This reinforces the trend away from conventional cars to higher ride height vehicles which is a disaster for road safety (especially pedestrian and cyclist safety).
They do successfully slow down the flow of traffic (and also cause traffic to follow alternative paths, at least until speed bumps are saturated in the area) but it fucks up emergency vehicle access and damages cars (increases wear and tear). The other road design solutions (more narrow roads, inclusion of roundabouts, addition of choke points etc) all are equally as effective as humps at reducing speeders and diverting traffic away from roads (in some cases they are better) and have none of the negative consequences, speed humps should never be used imo.
The speed bumps are supposed to be tailored to the target speed. There’s some 40 km/h streets in my city with regular speed bumps and they’re perfectly fine because the speed bumps are designed for that speed. They’re quite shallow compared to the kind of speed bump you’d see in a 20 km/h parking lot.
I’ve never seen or heard of this but I’m skeptical that there is any speed hump design that wouldn’t be a negative for emergency services, increase wear and tear to vehicles that cross them and that wouldn’t be less of an impact to lifted chassis vehicles. These problems are avoided by the other, better solutions so why are humps even a part of the conversation at all?