“We hope the world hears us and knows that the people of Israel are not the government of Israel,” said one protester.
Israelis protested on Saturday night, calling for a ceasefire and the resignation of hardline Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
Tens of thousands took to the streets in Tel Aviv to demand that the government reach a deal with Hamas to secure the release of Israeli hostages in Gaza.
They also called for new elections, accusing Netanyahu of prolonging the conflict to keep himself in power.
Look at all those anti-semites. /s
You want to see a grown person in full riot armor cry? Put a US police officer anywhere in the middle east.
Bizarrely, they’re likely already there 🤬
They are all undercover Hamas members trying to disrupt Israel’s political system /s
I wish them luck. They have an uphill climb against someone cementing dictatorial powers but I hope they can achieve those goals.
All the research I’m doing right now points to them just wanting their hostages back. Can anyone post evidence of citizens protesting the war on the grounds of genocide?
I just don’t see the humanity here… I want to see it, but I can’t find any evidence at all that they are against the actual atrocities being committed. If there is a huge vocal outcry for this, then their media (and/or ours) is doing overtime to hide it.
It’s interesting that Lemmy has pretty okay representation globally, not great but OK.
Are there any lemmings in Israel that can tell us what’s going on?
I think it’s important not to project into these protesters what we would like them to be protesting about. We need to hear their words, from them.
I’ve seen a couple and they were mostly Zionists defending the genocide. So far, they haven’t reflected well on their state, but if there’s anyone who actually doesn’t like the atrocities committed by Israel in Israel, I’d be curious to see if they exist here. The only one I’ve seen in articles is that one who sent to jail instead of participate in the IDF.
Hi, Israeli here.
I’ll start off by saying this turned out to be a VERY long post. I did my best to condense the absolutely necessary parts, and I still feel I’ve left a lot of important stuff out. Anyway, hopefully anyone who’s interested in the situation and reads this will be able to gain some insight.
The thing is, you guys are looking at the situation in Israel from your perspective without understanding the factors at play. To actually understand the situation among Jewish Israelis (who I’ll refer to as “Israelis” for simplicity’s sake) requires a thorough explanation about Israeli culture, politics and some history.
Saying “I don’t see any signs against genocide, that must mean all Israelis are pro-genocide” forces your perspective on the situation, like saying (in very broad terms) “I didn’t see any signs that talk about ‘all life matters’ in the BLM protests, that must mean they only value black lives”, so imaging that, but instead of an American saying it, it’s some dude in Thailand who has very little understanding of the racial situation on the US.
So, let’s go:
Right now, the country is pretty divided among supporters of the current government and those opposed to it. While the government has a 53% majority in the parliament, it really never had more than 50% supporters among the population (Firstly, some left wing parties didn’t get enough votes to get into parliament. Also, right after the elections the Likud government adopted a plan proposed by the religious far-right party that would, in essence, transform Israel into a Hungry-like hybrid regime which made many liberal Likud supporters oppose the government). The opposition grew stronger after Oct. 7th, though the government still has the support of (mainly) the far right, the ultra-orthodox religious parties and the Israeli version of Trump supporters who mainly want to “own the libs”. There are weekly polls that check how many people support the current government and Netanyahu is using every trick in the book to increase support among the public because his coalition is extremely fragile.
However, regarding the war in Gaza, there is a consensus that’s shared among a very large majority of the population from both sides:
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The Israeli hostages must be returned. I cannot overstate how important this is. Firstly, Israel is a tiny country, quite communal and most Israelis have large families. The hostages aren’t “citizens”, “people” or even “fellow Jews”. They’re “The niece of my dentist”, “My ex’s uncle”, “The daughter of friends of my colleague” etc. Nearly Every Israeli knows someone who knows someone who’s been kidnapped. Secondly, one of the founding ethos of Israel is to have a safe place for Jews that’s free of persecution no matter what. The Oct. 7th massacre is seen not only as a tragedy, but as the state not performing one of its core functions to some extent. Lastly, redemption of prisoners is a major commandment in the Jewish faith. This is the main point on all virtually ALL Israelis can agree upon (Let me stress that again - the agreement isn’t that the hostages “should” be returned, but that they MUST be returned. That’s important for later).
-
Hamas must be destroyed. If they’re allowed to exist, this will happen again (There is, however, disagreement on how best can Israel vanquish Hamas).
These two objectives are seen among many (not sure if most) as contradictory - Hamas is using the hostages to force an Israeli retreat from Gaza, and the only way they will release all of the hostages is if that secures their rule in Gaza. This is also important to remember for later.
- What Israel is doing in Gaza is somewhere between unfortunate and tragic, but it’s absolutely not genocide, rather a result of Hamas integrating itself into civilian infrastructure and hiding behind civilians (again, this is the mainstream opinion, not something agreed by ALL Israelis).
I, personally, subscribe to the first two points, do not believe they are contradictory and while I believe the IDF isn’t nearly as cautious about harming civilians in Gaza as it should be and that not allowing humanitarian aid into Gaza is immoral, both things do not constitute genocide.
Those numbed three points are in the Israeli consensus, but we have one more crucial piece of context before I get to the demonstrations - There are two groups of Israelis who do not believe the 1st and 2nd points are contradictory. Each belongs to opposing ends of the political spectrum - in the right there are those who think military pressure is the only way to, somehow, secure the release of the hostages. The other group is left leaning, and it believes that withdrawing from Gaza for the release of the hostages and building a civilian opposition against Hamas Will solve the issue in the long run. They also believe the current government doesn’t really want to get rid of Hamas, rather they want to make sure Hamas will remain the only Palestinian ruler in the strip, so the government has an excuse to continue the current treatment of Palestinians (both as individuals and as a people). The first group thrives on extremism and sowing division (and if this reminds you of a certain US political party and a US politician in particular, you are absolutely on the money), and the second group is trying to build on a consensus, and make room for liberal right leaning people in order to gain influence (the opposition is actually composed of two liberal right wing parties).
Oh, wait, just one other thing - There’s a joke that goes: A Jewish man is stranded on an island for 20 years. He is finally rescued, and the rescuers see the life he built for himself. Among all the things they see, there are two synagogues. They ask the man “you were on this Island alone. Why do you need two synagogues for?” The man looks lovingly at the first synagogue and says “Well, this is the synagogue where I prayed every day for someone to come and rescue me, and this” he says while looking disdainfully at the second synagogue “is the synagogue where I wouldn’t be caught dead in”. Point is, Jews and Israeli Jews in particular, love to argue and have disagreements. Think The Life of Brian’s The People’s Front of Judea and Judean People’s Front. So when I say “there are two groups”, it’s more like “there are about 1,000 groups that can be broadly divided in two camps”.
You’d think this leads to a society that’s fractured on many levels so that it can’t really operate, but Israelis are also very good at putting differences aside and coming together to achieve a common goal.
So, finally, about the protests - as you may have guessed, the people who are protesting belong to the second camp. And yes, many of them think what’s happening in Gaza is wrong. But remember the whole “putting our differences aside and coming together to achieve a common goal” and the “The hostages must be returned”? That’s the strategy in a nutshell. The protesters are trying to use the single most agreed upon goal, and build a consensus for a deal from there. That’s the reason you won’t see anything about Gazans in the protests. Going outside the consensus gives the far right more ammunition to paint the protesters as traitors and to rally the moderate right against them. The push for a deal NOW (the main rally cry) will cease virtually all IDF operations in Gaza anyway, so in some of the protesters’ minds (mine included), protesting against the IDF while correct in a vacuum actually goes against that very cause. Now, I don’t really know US history that well, but think what would happen if the Vietnam anti-war movement made room for more conservatives on the grounds that the war is harming the US. Maybe Nixon’s “law and order” campaign would have failed and he’d have lost the elections. I might be talking out of my ass here, but even if I’m wrong I hope this at least gives a better understanding about the strategy used by the protesters in Israel - they’re saying “You don’t have to join us because you’re a hippie peacenik. You have to join us because that’s what’s best for our country”.
I’d like to stress that the protesters are NOT hiding their opinions. They just want to make as much room for other supporters. Some people are willing to protest for a cease-fire if that means getting the hostages back, but would not be willing to protest alongside a sign that says “The IDF is killing innocent people”.
So that was about the situation in Israel. If you came this far, I hope you found the read worth your time. Now I’d like to ask for a bit more of your time in return.
I have a question for the people who are protesting against Israel to stop the “genocide” unconditionally (or those who are in support of said protests), but are not protesting against Hamas to release the hostages unconditionally (or those who see no need for these protests) - I assume you don’t agree with Hamas’s actions on Oct. 7th, but obviously you don’t believe these actions justify what Israel is doing in harming innocent people (BTW, most Israelis would agree. If you don’t understand how this can be, refer to the 3rd point stated previously).
I’d like to ask why does this logic not work the other way around? If what Israel is doing is reprehensible regardless of anything Hamas has done previously and should be opposed, then surely what Hamas has done is also reprehensible regardless of what Israel has done previously and should be opposed. Is it just a matter of numbers, so there’s a “minimum casualty” that justifies protests, and below that the victims are SOL?
Not saying that’s the case, but that’s what I was able to come up with. Maybe I’m missing some context.
And before you say that’s just whataboutism - I don’t think it is. Both things are a part of the same situation, so I think this is more a case of a cop seeing two cars driving on the road at night and stopping only one of them (where the driver happens to be black).
You won’t be able to find reliable information because Israel has a lot of ability to influence discourse especially online. They will kill and threaten journalists. They are the global leader in providing computer exploits and spy tools to nation-states. Don’t forget that nothing happened at Tienamen square, and there is no war in ba sing se.
Netanyahu has been prime minister for 16 years, just won reelection in 2022, and has been a murderous, zionist bastard the entire time.
Not to mention, he lost power before 2022 because of court battles from 2015 to 2021 after which the courts ruled he could not be held accountable for crimes of corruption, and his reinstatement also meant that the compromise-government that formed on the condition of 2 years of conservative rulership followed by 2 years of progressive/moderate rulership was cut short and it was just back to back Netanyahu-lite to Netanyahu-lager.
Murphy’s law is enforced in Israel.
the condition of 2 years of conservative rulership followed by 2 years of progressive/moderate rulership was cut short
Well the important thing is that the moderates compromised. How were they to know that the fascists couldn’t be trusted?
This is Charlie-Brown-with-the-football levels of gullible.
If you think it’s that simple you have no clue how controversial he is, and has been for roughly the entire time (increasing over the years). Israel isn’t (yet?) stuck in a two-party system, so there’s lots of different parties. Needless to say, Likkud (his party) does not get 50% of the votes. It is the largest party most of the time but not a majority.
The previous government formed with parties from opposite sides of the spectrum just to keep the Likkud out. It didn’t last long, but neither did any of Bibi’s governments in the preceding 2 years - we’ve had a political crisis because no one wanted to work with him because he’s so controversial. The only reason he won the last election is that some parties on the left didn’t pass the threshold to be represented (basically throwing away their votes) and he partnered with extremist parties on the far-right, which he previously wouldn’t have lowered himself to but he was desperate to return to power. No one would partner with him but them.
As for the number of votes Likkud does get - yeah, it’s a lot, but so are Trump voters (or pick your least favourite party/politician in your country) and it wouldn’t be fair to generalise and say all Americans support Trump, would it? Not to mention, you only get to pick from the candidates that are available.
FWIW I voted against him, to the party that didn’t pass the threshold :( it was the first time in their history this happened IIRC
Likud doesnt get a majority, but it does get a plurality for a reason. Its also far from the only murderous zionist party, the coalition formed is absolutely a majority. Even if people didnt vote for netanyahu, most of them voted for a murderous zionist party. Netanyahu isnt doing this alone.
How anti-semetic of them. Don’t they know you can’t do that?
You aren"t saying the protesters are sterotypically self hating are you?
That would be a foul.
Is this that reknowned sense of humor?
Stunning wit here.
Stunning ability to take a joke in the other replys.
And this shows that those opposed to Israel’s actions in Gaza are not antisemitic (ignoring the eventual neonazi assholes), they are opposed to a government that is committing genocide. Especially a government that governs a people THAT SHOULD KNOE BETTER.
I have no problems at all with Jews and I’m sure that, given people who really want peace, a good treaty can be made where both the Palestinians and the Israelites can peacefully coexist, that would be awesome.
However, right now saying even something like that is somehow antisemitic. If anything, I find that sort of behavior antisemitic, because it is so transparent that it pushes more people to the far right and into the hands of neo Nazis.
Stop the genocide, stop the war, withdraw ALL Israeli forces immediately and unconditionally. Then put in a peace keeping force comprised of multiple countries in that same area, and make sure they all work towards peace.
People like me get no love from anyone because I want the Jewish people to have Israel as their country, and I want to help protect the rights of Israelis. I also want the same for Palestinians.
People who perpetuate genocide against anyone shouldn’t be tolerated by civilized societies. The fact that mass killings exist in any form in human history is not a role model for the future.
I find it helps to name check the position you’re describing, which is “a one-state solution”.
How is what I am describing one-state? The reasonable path forward, which limits bloodshed and violence, is supporting both Israel’s and Palestine’s right to exist.
First of all if Israel, having such a strong military and industrial base, were not a piece of rotten evil, it could make a huge difference in the Middle-East.
But instead of actually working toward that end Israelis decided to put a kinda similar image and exploit it. Simultaneously having a narrative of “we tried, but they just don’t want to live happily” in their propaganda and even believing that themselves.
First of all if Israel, having such a strong military and industrial base, were not a piece of rotten evil, it could make a huge difference in the Middle-East.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://m.piped.video/watch?v=FYLNCcLfIkM
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Palestine will reject any treaty. Like they always have. All they want is for Jews to be the minority or to leave entirely.
Report: Hamas Accepts Gaza Cease-fire Deal; Israeli Officials Reject Prospect of War Ending
Archive link for posterity.
A headline from an article I need to pay to read that was sourced by hamas themselves? I’m sold! 🤣
No wonder the whole world doesn’t take you far lefties seriously 😂
True. I say we give back the land to the people that were there first. Egypt and Jordan.
Israel jews are a different breed than the holocaust survivors. Germany paid reparations to Israel and barely, if any, actually made it to the actual survivors. They’re generally not a good people. But I have seen protests and legit compassion from them to know that it’s always the loudest voices that are most often heard.
There’s just one small flaw in your plan. Hamas has widespread support in Palestine and is not interested in peace, only in the destruction of Israel.
If you end the war you just go back to the previous situation where Hamas will continue to persistently launch rockets at Israel and execute more terror attacks, not peace.
Maybe it has such support because of Israel actions. I bet after the Netanjahu war crimes it will have 99%. Hell survivors probably will KoS anyone who even remotely resembles someone from Israel and will pass this tradition on generations to come.
I can understand why you’d think that coming from a position of logic, but no, it’s Islam.
You’re right, it’ll probably go from >50% to 99%. And probably few of them will ever acknowledge that their religion and support of Hamas is what led to this tragedy.
“Now we’ve justified, that 70% of the murdered people are women and children, right? RIGHT?! REICH?!”
If they aren’t interested in peace then why was it Netanyahu who just torpedoed the current cease fire proposal and not Hamas?
Clearly because he wants to eliminate the jihadist terrorist organisation. I’m not claiming that’s the right decision but I understand it. But it seems a lot of Israelis don’t support him.
But just because Netanyahu is no longer interested in peace doesn’t automatically make Hamas a peaceful group. The group that performs suicide bombings, uses human shields, beheads civilians, would stone you to death for drawing a picture of the prophet. They are not looking for peace no matter how much you downvote
