293 points

“There are no ways to prevent such attacks except when the user’s VPN runs on Linux or Android.”

So there are ways.

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98 points

Common Linux w

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9 points

Not really, Linux is still vulnerable and there is a mitigation but it opens a side channel attack.

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22 points

Android

Except sometimes.

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7 points

Here is an alternative Piped link(s):

Except sometimes

Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.

I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.

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8 points

True, if you neg a linux dev online enough for two years, you can make your entire infrastructure vulnerable to attack

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8 points
*

Wait so the vulnerability exists on macos and iphone even though those are based on bsd (right?)

Edit: and also Windows, forgot about Windows

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4 points

Hilariously enough, Windows users can use WSL to run a Linux VPN (but only applications running in WSL are safe if I understand the attack right)

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2 points

Hate to rain on the Linux parade here, but didn’t the article say: “There are no ways to prevent such attacks except when the user’s VPN runs on Android.” and that Linux was just as vulnerable as Windows?

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15 points

It’s not as vulnerable but it still is.

Interestingly, Android is the only operating system that fully immunizes VPN apps from the attack because it doesn’t implement option 121. For all other OSes, there are no complete fixes. When apps run on Linux there’s a setting that minimizes the effects, but even then TunnelVision can be used to exploit a side channel that can be used to de-anonymize destination traffic and perform targeted denial-of-service attacks.

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7 points

But in the details this attack is not that bad. E.g. NordVPN and I guess also other VPNs use firewall rules to drop traffic on normal network interfaces.

Their side channel is still routing traffic away from the VPN channel. Then they can observe that there is no traffic and guess that the user either didn’t make requests in that moment or that he wanted to visit a website in the range covered by the route. They can not spy on the traffic.

Also you can not quickly move into a network and apply this attack, as DHCP leases usually last 1 day or at least 1 hour. Only when they expire you can apply the attack (or you force the user to drop from the network, which is easy if they are using WPA2, but only possible by blocking the wifi signal if they are using WPA3)

It is a serious issue and should be mitigated, but not as huge as news articles make it.

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1 point
Deleted by creator
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2 points

you’re replying to a verbatim quote from the article.

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5 points

I was going from this: (emphasis mine)

Interestingly, Android is the only operating system that fully immunizes VPN apps from the attack because it doesn’t implement option 121. For all other OSes, there are no complete fixes. When apps run on Linux there’s a setting that minimizes the effects, but even then TunnelVision can be used to exploit a side channel that can be used to de-anonymize destination traffic and perform targeted denial-of-service attacks.

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1 point

Partial context is a bitch.

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2 points

This is the way

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77 points

So for this attack to work, the attacker needs to be able to run a malicious DHCP server on the target machine’s network.

Meaning they need to have already compromised your local network either physically in person or by compromising a device on that network. If you’ve gotten that far you can already do a lot of damage without this attack.

For the average person this is yet another non-issue. But if you regularly use a VPN over untrusted networks like a hotel or coffee shop wifi then, in theory, an attacker could get your traffic to route outside the VPN tunnel.

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45 points

Put another way, this means that a malicious coffee shop or hotel can eavesdrop on all VPN traffic on their network. That’s a really big fucking deal.

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27 points

Not all VPN traffic. Only traffic that would be routable without a VPN.

This works by tricking the computer into routing traffic to the attacker’s gateway instead of the VPN’s gateway. It doesn’t give the attacker access to the VPN gateway.

So traffic intended for a private network that is only accessible via VPN (like if you were connecting to a corporate network for example) wouldn’t be compromised. You simply wouldn’t be able to connect through the attacker’s gateway to the private network, and there wouldn’t be traffic to intercept.

This attack doesn’t break TLS encryption either. Anything you access over https (which is the vast majority of the internet these days) would still be just as encrypted as if you weren’t using a VPN.

For most people, in most scenarios, this amount to a small invasion of privacy. Our hypothetical malicious coffee shop could tell the ip addresses of websites you’re visiting, but probably not what you’re doing on those websites, unless it was an insecure website to begin with. Which is the case with or with VPN.

For some people or some situations that is a MASSIVE concern. People who use VPNs to hide what they’re doing from state level actors come to mind.

But for the average person who’s just using a VPN because they’re privacy conscious, or because they’re location spoofing. This is not going to represent a significant risk.

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2 points

That’s a fair point, you’re right.

I do still think that a lot of people do use VPNs in public spaces for privacy from an untrusted provider, though, perhaps more than your initial comment seemed to suggest.

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2 points

Plaintext connections inside corporate networks can still be MITM’ed if the adversary knows what they’re targeting, while they can’t connect to the corporate network they can still steal credentials

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44 points

This is the primary reason folks use VPNs - to protect themselves on public networks. I would say it’s definitely not a non-issue.

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7 points

The thing is that in most cases you don’t need a VPN to protect yourself on a public network. The ubiquity of TLS on the internet already does a great job of that. Using a VPN on a public network for privacy and security reasons amounts to little more than the obfuscation of which sites you’re visiting, and some fallback protection against improperly configured websites. So while I agree it isn’t entirely a non-issue, it definitely isn’t as big of an issue as one might assume given the scary wording of the headline and article.

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12 points

Not quite, this could be exploited by telecom providers when using mobile data. Also using a VPN for networks you DON’T control is one of the more popular uses of the things

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3 points

I think the real meat here would be the work from home crowd. If you can find a hole in there router, you can inject routing tables and defeat VPN.

But the VPN client doesn’t have to be stupid. You could certainly detect rogue routes and shut down the network.

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4 points

As I mentioned in my other comment, this wouldn’t let an attacker eavesdrop on traffic on a VPN to a private corporate network by itself. It has to be traffic that is routable without the VPN.

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3 points

I don’t know, if you’ve already have full control over routing and have some form of local presence, seems to me you could do something interesting with a proxy, maybe even route the traffic back to the tunnel adapter.

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61 points

there are no ways to prevent such attacks except when the user’s VPN runs on Linux or Android.

So . . . unix? Everything-but-Windows?

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34 points

Maybe it affects BSD and MacOS.

It also can affect some Linux systems based on configuration. Android doesn’t implement the exploited standard at all and is always immune.

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-43 points
*

Everything-but-Windows?

No. Any device that implements a certain DHCP feature is vulnerable. Linux doesn’t support it, because most Linux systems don’t even use DHCP at all let alone this edge case feature. And Android doesn’t support it because it inherited the Linux network stack.

I would bet some Linux systems are vulnerable, just not with the standard network packages installed. If you’re issued a Linux laptop for work, wouldn’t be surprised if it has a package that enables this feature. It essentially gives sysadmins more control over how packets are routed for every computer on the LAN.

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58 points
*

most Linux systems don’t even use DHCP

WTF are you smoking? WTF is wrong with you that you think such a dumb claim would go unscrutinized? I would play Russian roulette on the chances of a random Linux installation on a random network talking DHCP.

Edit, in case being charitable helps: DNS and IP address allocation aren’t the only things that happen over DHCP. And even then the odds are overwhelming that those are being broadcast that way.

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43 points

because most Linux systems don’t even use DHCP

This is the dumbest thing I’ve heard all day.

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9 points

As of this writing, 5 people who don’t know how DHCP works saw this comment

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54 points

If your LAN is already compromised with a rogue DHCP server, you’ve got bigger problems than them intercepting just VPN traffic. They can man in the middle all of your non-encrypted traffic. While this is bad, it’s not a scenario most people will run into.

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65 points

The problem isn’t them being in you LAN. It’s about going to an untrusted network (eg Starbucks, hotel) and connecting to your VPN, boom, now your VPN connection is compromised.

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13 points

I woke up this morning and thought of this exact scenario, then found your comment lol

Yes, this is bad for anyone who travels for work and can’t trust the network they connect to.

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22 points

The other comment already covers the fact that VPN should be useful exactly when you are connected to untrusted LANs. I want to add that also the main point of your comment is anyway imprecise. You don’t need a compromise DHCP, you just need another machine who spoofs being a DHCP. Not all networks have proper measures in place for these attacks, especially when we are talking wireless (for example, block client-to-client traffic completely). In other words, there is quite a middle-ground between a compromised router (which does DHCP in most cases) and just having a malicious device connected to the network.

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6 points

I wonder if it applies to routers made by a company who likes collecting user data. Because this is a situation many people are in.

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49 points

To be fair, any proper VPN setup that only relies on the routing table like this is flawed to begin with.
If the VPN program dies or the network interface disappears, the routes are removed aswell, allowing traffic to leave the machine without the VPN.
So it is already a good practice to block traffic where it shouldnt go (or even better, only allowing it where it should).

Many VPN-Programs by Providers already have settings to enable this to prevent “leaking”.

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-74 points

aswell

Not a word.

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28 points

You’re going to be ok.

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22 points
*

Strong argument, anything else?

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10 points

A swell

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2 points
*
Removed by mod
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2 points

It might aswell be one

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1 point

Still not a word.

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